🎙Amy Dittmar, Howard R. Hughes Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs and a Professor of Finance at Rice University's Jones Graduate School of Business joins moderators David Ikenberry and Ken Kring.

A dean's guide to working with the provost featuring Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at Rice University Dr. Amy Dittmar. 

As dean, your success hinges on a strong relationship with your provost. But how do you foster effective collaboration, especially when you're facing complex challenges?

“A part of their role isn't just about running their school, but it's about the relationships all across campus and building those relationships. Said Dittmar.

In this episode of the Deans Counsel Podcast moderators David Ikenberry and Ken Kring discuss insights by Dr. Amy Ditmar, a seasoned academic leader, on building bridges between deans and provosts. 

Dr. Dittmar offers helpful advice on dealing with some of the stressors we all face as deans, bringing solutions to the conversation as you share problems with your provost and some helpful insight into thinking about how budgetary problems arise, and how to potentially defuse them.

“Crisis management can really just take a huge amount of your emotional time. So, you have to find ways to be able to compartmentalize it and deal with it.” Said Dittmar

Learn the approaches and techniques Dr. Dittmar has used to help her thrive in the role of provost and more. For current and aspiring deans, Episode 39 is a must listen

Learn more about Dr. Amy Dittmar here

Photos courtesy of Rice

Welcome to Dean's Council podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists can Kring Kring and Dave Ikenberry engage in conversation with highly accomplished Dean's and other academic leaders regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Dean's face and one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy. As deans, each of us typically reports to a provost, Chief Academic Officer of our respective institutions. In this episode of Dean's Council we visit with Amy Ditmar, the Howard argues Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs at Rice University, Amy came to Rice with deep experience. Prior to Rice, she worked in the Provost Office at the University of Michigan, overseeing that University's massive and complex budget, and for a time also served as its Provost, as Dean's, how can we work more effectively with our provost. In this episode, Amy shares how she likes to work with collaborate with and support Deans and the challenges they face. She also shares her perspective on some of the bigger issues confronting universities today that Dean's are less likely to encounter. Along the way, she comments on a wide variety of issues and provides helpful advice on dealing with some of the stressors we all face, as Dean's bringing solutions in addition to the problems we face when in conversation with our provost, and some helpful insight into thinking about how budgetary problems arise and how to potentially defuse them.

Speaker 1 1:47

We're pleased today to have Amy Ditmar on Dean's Counsel. Amy, thank you so much for for being with us today.

Amy Dittmar 1:54

I'm happy to be here. Good to see you again.

Dave 1:57

Amy is the Executive Vice President at Provost Rice University down in Houston. And she has obviously a large span of control with that organization. She's not new to this role, per se. She's done a tour of duty at the University of Michigan and of course, Amy and I go back years, both being finance professors at heart and in origin, I suppose. Amy, again, thank you for being with us today. Great. So Amy, as the chief academic officer at Rice, there are several people that report to you, but one constituency in particular, are all of the academic deans that roll into your office, what has been your experience with in working with Dean's as to approaches, you know, relationships that they have with you what what are effective approaches that Dean's particularly Business School Dean's have and making a strong, healthy positive working relationship versus saying less healthy and, and distractive relationships? Yeah,

Amy Dittmar 3:08

so my, I guess my academic and management style tends to be pretty inclusive. And so not surprisingly, that's what I often am looking for in the relationship with the deans. I mean, you know, and so what I mean by that is not to have to run every single decision by the deans are very autonomous, and they run their, their own shop, and almost always, but to have that back and forth discussion, which you know, can be in our monthly meetings, which we have, but honestly, I spend as much time emailing and texting and just calling and just having that informal communication is is important, as well, for business school deans, I think that, you know, I've been at Rice and Michigan, so I can't speak for every place. But business schools are often a little bit more on their own, if you will, in some senses, sometimes they have to, they tend to sometimes act in their in their own sphere because it especially with the MBA program, it can be maybe different than some of the other Dean's. And so one piece that I really appreciate is to is for those business school deans in particular to really think about the whole university. And so, you know, I think one it's sometimes surprises people when they become a dean how much a part of their role isn't just about running their school, but it's about the relationships all across campus and building those relationships. And so being that partner not just with me, but with the other Dean's is something that I think is important not just for the business school dean but for the others as well because I think they can learn a lot as well as have cross disciplinary programs and such.

Jim 4:43

Right. So what one of the one of the things that one of the Provost that I worked for when I was dean at USC said to me, is that the bet that the deans that are the weakest are the ones that dumped the biggest problems on my desk and say here you saw Have it and, and the other ones come come to me with. Okay, I've got a problem here my three solutions A, B, and C, I'm going to take B, are you okay with that? Have you run into those kinds of situations where they try and dump the hard ones on your desk and make you the buck stops here, as opposed to them being the buck stops here? Yes,

Amy Dittmar 5:21

definitely. I mean, I think there are always times when and to some extent, I also tell them, just as I tell my own kids, I mean, look, if you need me to be the bad guy, I can be the bad guy for you. I mean, because they have that front face to the faculty. So I don't think that that's necessarily a downside, or a bad part of the relationship. But it has to be kind of a mutual agreement. There are certainly times when there might be Dean's that, you know, they don't want to make the tough decisions, or that they you know, and they don't come with even the tough decisions, even if they do want the bad news to come from Central. That might be okay. But I still need them to help make that decision and to figure out what's right. One, because that's their job. So that's what a dean is supposed to be doing. But also because they know their school in a way. I mean, I can't know the the culture and the impact on faculty and staff have a decision in the same way that they can, you know, walk in the halls every day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think that's why it's, that's why when I said, you know, back and forth, and one on ones and phone conversations, I mean, the more you have kind of just a more fluid conversation with the deans, and obviously, they it's not with everything, but the more we can kind of get to know each other in what the management is. And that's, you know, certainly easier at Rice with its scale and size. But I did the same at University of Michigan. So I think it can be done at any size. Yeah. And

Jim 6:52

I think the other thing is that, in many cases, they're thinking about the fact that when my dean ship is over, I'm going back into the faculty. I don't necessarily want to be the bad guy to somebody in my own department, because I've got to live with him when I get done with this. So

Dave 7:07

yeah, Amy, a big chunk of your job presumptive here, but a big portion of your job, I suppose is, is dealing with litigation issues that emerge. Oftentimes, this is in the context of an HR situation, as opposed to other type situations. How do you personally handle the stress that certainly comes from that? And and what advice do you have for Dean's to, again, get burned out. And also, and also appropriately handle it, not only for their own safety, per se, but out of respect for the institution and the people involved?

Amy Dittmar 7:48

Yeah, I mean, that's a part of the job. That's obviously not always the fun part. But it's a it's a people business, right. And so there's all sorts of, of issues that come up, that are both good, as well as challenging. I mean, from the the first thing I would say, and as a gene coming in as an after being an associate dean or a department chair, you won't have had a whole lot experience, probably with the General Counsel, for instance, at the university. I remember when I was Associate Dean many years ago, my husband's also a faculty, which Dave knows that everyone knows. And he said, he was very surprised when I would talk about all of these, you know, the marketing people and the general counsel. And it just as a faculty just didn't even realize that all that was behind the scenes and so, but is that when you become a dean, you're working with them all the time. And so I would say that quickly and early, get to know those people, I mean, and get to know not just who they are, but what their processes are. And that's going to and I say that because in order to be able to deal with both the the issues that will come up, but also the emotional part is going to be able to be trusting that process somewhat. I mean, it's general counsel, and it's eight academic HR, you're not going to be able to there's parts of it that you can't handle and you shouldn't be be dealing with. And so you're going to have to be able to trust in some of the process. That doesn't mean that people aren't going to be constantly coming in to you and talking with you. But there's a part of it that you have to I don't want to compartmentalize in a bad way, but you can't let it just take over your your, your entire work because you're still moving the the mission forward. And this that piece is really the same for HR litigation, protests that might be starting on campus that are taking up a large portion of your time, big concerns from students, I mean, anything that kind of kind of can start having the, the, for lack of a better word, recall, cardio crisis management can really just take a huge amount of your emotional time. So you have to find ways to to be able to compartmentalize it and deal with it. And so at the same time you have to kind of keep tabs on what's going on? You know, I don't mean just turn it over to the General Counsel. But I do think that being able to know, you know, is that somebody that is that a group that I'm trusting that they really are going to be handling it the way it should? To? Where are their strengths? Where do I not see them having the strength that I need to make sure I'm complementing not the legal side, but the the more people sides of of it.

Jim 10:25

And I think the one thing you've identified that's difficult is, in today's world, we've got so many crises going on, and so many negatives, and so many today issues that it's hard when you want the dean to that he or she is the expression airy Person of the vision of the school. Yeah. And they've got to keep looking forward. What What's the mission? Where are we trying to do here? Right, as opposed to just all of the issues that were solid things that we're trying to stop that are going on? On a daily basis? And that's very difficult thing to do? I would think it

Amy Dittmar 11:00

is. I mean, especially if, you know, the, you know, there's there's different levels of HR litigation, if that since that was what the question was that can consume more or less of your time. I mean, some of them are just the normal course of business. And, you know, some of them are things that can really take its toll not just on a dean, but an entire institution, depending on, you know, what the, the level of the, the challenges are. And so, continuing to move forward is an important part for any leader, I mean, a president, a provost or a dean, but at the end of the day, that's part of the the role is to be able to do that. And, and, you know, and realizing that this from the students perspective, from the faculty's perspective, they probably don't even know this is going on. And so it's sucking, you know, a huge amount of your time and energy, but they're still expecting the visibility and the interactions. And so, you know, I think that's, that's another place where with Dave's point on being, you know, the emotional toll, you have to be able to have a way to release that. And you know, and these jobs are stressful. And so I mean, I think part of it's also what is your, what is your own personal stress management style? You know, do you like to go for a run? Do you do yoga? I mean, whatever, go play with your dog. So, you don't have a lot of time for that. But you need to find those little little pieces of it for sure. Yeah.

Jim 12:23

Good.

Dave 12:24

Amy, you being a finance professor money comes easy to you, I suppose. Thinking about money. Share with us your your prowess and budgetary experiences, if you will work, we're going through US higher education in general seems to have several, you know, there's some key examples of some some institutions where, you know, where we see some really material discrepancies, budgetary wise, West Virginia, Penn State, maybe in Arizona. But even beyond some of those glaring examples, there's there just seems to be a little bit more belt technique going on. Now, that's a perception. I don't know if that's true. But but, you know, what's your? Do you have any observations on why we might be going through some budgetary stressors right now? And then? But more importantly, what's your approach to dealing with budgetary contraction, so to speak? And I suppose answering that question also depends on speed? Like, do you have three years to fix it? Or three weeks to fix it?

Amy Dittmar 13:32

Right? And what's the root of the issue? Yes, it's just for, you know, a little bit of background for those listening. So in addition to the provost job, which had been in almost two years here at Rice, which is clearly a top private, my role at Michigan and for seven years was a vice provost, one of the main things was the budget sole responsibility was that was in the was the the Provost Office, and that was my role. So it's also a big a big public and a big public with a hospital. So I kind of have multiple perspectives there. And so that kind of impacts my answer. You know, I don't know if I would say that there's more champion. This is not a time where it's, you know, we're not going through a national downturn in a sense of, you know, from an economic standpoint. I mean, we've had some some I'm not saying that hasn't been some challenges, but for the most part, the economy's doing fairly well. That being said, there are some pressures that I think has caused, you know, a few places to have some true challenges, enrollment declines. I mean, that was already we're kind of 25 is when we hit the peak of of enrollment, and we know it's going to start coming down or projected based on high school graduations, that affects different universities quite differently. So, you know, candidly, at a rice or a Michigan that's that's not impacting us, right. I mean, so we're kind of high enough on the on the food chain that that's that hasn't been For a lot of schools that is, and so some not, not all the ones you mentioned, but a few of those are probably dealing with some challenges and or at least more volatility in in enrollment and COVID certainly didn't didn't help that you had, we lot, we had a lot of students who have choosing to not come or to stay out of the, the higher ed, or make other choices, and that kind of got exasperated, but during COVID And I think what all that means is there's just a little bit more volatility than there was at one time in higher ed higher ed's, you know, our cost basis is very stable, right tenure, and make sure if it happened in some senses, but but others are, we don't turn quickly. And so you start to insert some things, and that works fine. If your revenues are and, you know, while the population is growing, and people are increasingly going to college, things were pretty stable there too. And so now you've got a little bit more volatility in your in your revenues, but you don't have a whole lot more flexibility in your cost structure. And so, and I think that's just gonna make it a little bit more challenging. And so you put into there COVID spending, there was an influx of one time, dollars, that covered some things that I think at least at a few schools, when that went away, there was there, there was a challenge. And so in the you know, language of higher ed of baseball, you know, base versus one time, you know, costs and funds. While two revenues, you almost think of as one time revenues. And so, you know, one experience, I would say that is and this will speak to business schools, business schools that have large exec ed programs, that's a very volatile business. And so if you put kind of base costs on the volatile revenues of exec ed, you're gonna, you're gonna get upside down at some point. So you almost have to think of it, you have to kind of match the duration, if you will of the two. And so if you think about now, there's a little bit more volatility overall in higher ed, that you need that same kind of matching of the duration of the two. And that's, that's different than a lot of institutions have had to in the past. And you know, exactly, that's kind of an extreme example, you know, NSF just cut their budget 8%. So that's going to be a little that's going to have an impact on other places in the university. You know, we're seeing a continuing to see more global competition for students. And so I think that continues to, to have a bit more volatility, certainly world events can have that. So there's just a lot of things I think that can make that the, the fluctuations. And if you haven't really, if you've been planning for something, thinking it's a base inflow, and then all of a sudden it goes away. And the costs don't. You can kind of get upside down. Yeah. And I don't want to simplify I do not I have not dug into the exact, you know, that you know, that you mentioned Penn State and Arizona, those are our two that certainly are on a lot of people's radars, because they're in the news. I don't, I don't want to pretend that I know the specifics of their their unique challenges. But those are the kinds of things that start to get in the way, in some senses. And I think that issue of COVID also impacts state budgets. So both, you know, when you're talking about state institutions, there was an influx of a large influx of of additional dollars being spent in state budgets, that there that wasn't it has started to is not there as much anymore. Post post the funding, the federal funding that the states had, most states I think, are still doing pretty well when it comes to you know, if any, compared to maybe a decade ago or so, investing in higher ed, but it's still it's still not what it was, you know, 30 years ago.

Jim 18:55

So if you if you take the provost job, and think about your situation, relative to a dean situation, what keeps you up at night, but maybe doesn't keep a dean up at night? It's

Amy Dittmar 19:09

a good question. Certainly this year, the war in the Middle East has hit all schools. I think that's probably hit Dean's as well. But I think for the most part, you know, that's that's probably the the central administration that's been managing some of that that conflict. It doesn't it's not that doesn't trickle down, but I don't, the day in day out management of that hasn't I think hit the hit hit at the dean level and you can probably say the same about a lot of kind of large macro events. Yeah, a macro events that are going to that are going to hit. You know, I think also when it comes to depending on how the budget model of a university, the deans are, can be more or less insulated from what even some of the overall costs of the university can be. So for instance, undergraduate financial aid, you know, huge issue at all Institute missions, but particularly at privates, depending on the budget model that that's, that's more or less transparent to the, to the, to the deans. And so, you know, I think that it can it can it can impact from a budgetary sense that can be an issue. And, you know, it also depends on, you know, for me, I mean, I do this job, and I love this job. I mean, I'm because of the overall impact of higher ed. So, you know, issues like the affordability and making sure that we are accessible to all students, you know, from income and diversity, all of that, of course, that's important to a dean too, but it may not be in their, you know, the day to day life, at least from the undergrad sense. And the business school, of course, you've got a balance between the MBA or the graduate programs and undergrad in a way that is a little different, I think, than for a provost. But I'd say probably, there's probably a little bit more of the crisis management stuff that probably is what is the biggest piece that that hits us Central. And that doesn't mean it doesn't hit the deans, but it's just it's a different a different level of stressor. Yeah. Hey,

Dave 21:07

me. When you think about your provost do colleagues around the country, and I'm sure on occasion, you get together and swap stories or, or or deal with common issues. What are some of the key issues that that provosts and you don't need to speak for rice or yourself, per se? But what are the two or three things that are happening today? That yeah, do you should be aware of?

Amy Dittmar 21:35

Well, I think I mean, a lot of it's, you know, if you if you if you read and I and I always actually recommend to all Dean's that they aren't reading the the Chronicle of Higher Ed is got most of these issues in them. And sometimes when you're at an early Dean, especially if you're within a discipline, you may not think to read that you're reading other other publications unique. But so I don't want to say I am, these are things that are on everyone's radar, but I think that the you can call it an attack, or you can call it a decrease in the value of higher education is something that's kind of going across our country in a way that is particularly challenging. I mean, I think that many of us when we went to college, we kind of took for granted that yes, this was an important investment in our future. And, and, you know, with my economics hat on I still argue it certainly is. But I think that the challenges of that are are real. And so that's something I think it's important for everyone to be aware of and to think about. And so we talked about that a lot with the other Provost, I would say the that and and, you know, certainly the crisis is that go on, kind of just exacerbate that. But I'd say what is the average person think of, of universities and the polarization that we see politically and how that interacts with it, that those are those are issues for certainly our nation, but they're also really issues in in higher ed. And for those that talk about it in a sense of an attack on higher ed, you know, and I don't know if attacks the right word, maybe we'll just say criticism of higher ed, depending on your perspective, it can have all sorts of implications, it can have implications on how we do what we do, maybe states changing policies and regulations on everything from what we might be able to teach or the how, what how we support our students. And some states have have had some, some policies on that or to have on on funding either State students, state schools having changes in the funding, or with privates having the discussion of an endowment tax and things of that sort. So, you know, I think that really the value proposition of why it's important, we all need to be talking about more, we all got to this place. Because we we were we we invested in our own education, and we went to excellent schools and impact of that on our daily lives is incredibly important. And that's most likely why we all invested in these jobs are put ourselves our own human capital into those, but it is it's we talk about that's something I think we talk about, about quite a bit,

Dave 24:12

building off of this criticism about our question about the value of higher education, what are some of the approaches that are being implemented to try to push back on that idea? Is there anything specific Are we still trying to get our arms around that?

Amy Dittmar 24:27

I think we're still trying to get our arms around some of it. I mean, I think over the last decade, we've tried, tried not perfectly successfully to make the cost of education a bit more transparent. The most, you know, this year with the changes in basketball, that was not necessarily the smoothest transition. But, you know, many of the universities we're sitting at have, you know, tuition guarantees or you know, what I mean by that is, anyone under an income of x has free tuition, you know, so that that makes it clear to students. So I think that that helps people understand And the difference in the investment piece of the of the equation, trying to explain the difference in sticker price and net price. I think that helps somewhat to do that. But I think the other is what is the purpose of higher ed. And so, you know, one way is to combat that is to talk about jobs and placements and an income. Certainly, as an economist, I think that's an important piece. But I think we also have to talk about being, you know, creating an educated citizenry, and to think about the importance of the impact that we have on the overall common good of society and the and the impact that we have have there. And that's, you know, that's, that's a language you hear, certainly in the humanities, but I think you are hearing it increasingly, in the business schools as well, when you, you know, this generation is is a little bit less to say, you know, yes, investment banking is what I want. There's more and more students, not that some don't still want to go to investment banking, but more and more they want to know what their impact is, and how are they not changing the world, but having an effect on the world. And so, I think having that conversation is is important. And it actually goes back to some of the things I said, when I first started about making sure you have that relationship across all schools, because that's, I think, really key than the business schools to be working with the other schools, because a lot of that value add comes from the cross disciplinary approach to solving some of the world's biggest problems. And I've been talking a lot about undergrads. But I should be clear, this is same as for MBAs, right? I mean, there, the number of MBA programs that are out there has shrunk. I mean, so we all know that that market has has kind of gotten a little bit smaller as people look at the value proposition for that. And I don't, I don't not somebody who thinks that that degree is going away or anything, but it certainly doesn't have as many students as it probably did it in the 80s or so that, you know, that kind of heyday? Yeah.

Jim 27:01

Well, the other thing is that some of these specialized when your masters have taken over some of that student population as well, when they've been a little bit more specialized in terms of what jobs they can get that kind of thing. You're sitting in Houston, which is the energy capital of the country. Yeah, that whole thing is under fire in so many different ways. How do you work with the deans to change the curriculum and get the students prepared for the fact that dependence upon fossil fuel is going to be something that's not as critical as it was in the 80s? And right? I didn't work with that. How do you? How do you handle that?

Amy Dittmar 27:37

So that's kind of that's a huge piece of what Rice's is doing. So one of the things in the last year and a half that we've done is I put together a strategic plan. And that's, you know, a core a core pillar of the sustainability, how you how you make that transition. I think different universities have different approaches, and I think being in Houston and the energy capital and and being at Rice, I'd say we have a bit more of maybe a pragmatic approach, I would say. And that means working with the energy companies to get to that solution, it still is a move away from fossil fuels, for sure. And that may be something that we work more with some with them than others about, you know, creating partnerships across the university and in the energy sector, in order to be able to make that transition, and to get to the place that we are not reliant on fossil fuels, which will take some time. But I think we are making some really important significant progress. But yes, the our locale greatly impacts how we're doing that. And in every in every discipline, I would say that, you know, you know, the business school certainly has a focus on on energy here, but and certainly with engineering, we just actually launched a new master's and in the energy transition between the science and engineering, so it's a it's an important part of, well, the world, but but certainly what we're doing here in Houston, yeah, yeah, sure.

Dave 29:03

Well, Amy, it's, it's just been delightful to not only see you again, but to hear your insights on these various questions today. I want to thank you for being with us today.

Amy Dittmar 29:13

Yeah. Well, great. Thank you for holding me and the and the conversation with business school dean that are out there. I'm always happy to see old friends and meet new ones. And Jim, it's good to meet you. And Dave, always good to see you again.

Jim 29:27

We really appreciate it really appreciate. It's great to hear your perspective and your thought process and continued good luck. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I thank you.

Dave 29:45

Jim, that was a fun conversation with Amy Ditmar. What did you What were your takeaways?

Jim 29:50

I think to get the perspective, from a provost who's looking at the entire university, and particular for particularly for For her to say that she tries to make sure the Deans think about the fact that they are part of a bigger institution. You know, when we're in those roles, we think about our own individual school. And yet we are a part of the whole, and that there was some very, very good treasures in those in those comments. And she really was great. I appreciate the fact she comes out with an experience from a business school, but she's also looking at it from a perspective of the Chief Academic Officer of an entire university. I thought it was very, very enlightening. Yeah,

Dave 30:37

I found her comment about the budget. Really interesting, you know, this notion about the volatility of the revenue streams being greater than that of the cost structure, very insightful comment, I, you know, intuitively you kind of think that way, or I used to think that way, but to hear her articulate that was, was really quite interesting. And I

Jim 31:01

think the the comment about exec ed, yeah. And the fact that exec ed and of course, Michigan had such a huge executive program, that you can get your costs out ahead of your revenues. And when all of a sudden, something goes off the cliff, you got to figure those get those costs back in line. And that's happened to a number of schools, and she's right on the money on that one. And that was just a good finance professors thought process. Yep. Yeah.

Dave 31:26

I also like her, you know, when we talked about and you and I have one with Ken, we've had these conversations offline about this big issue of, of society questioning the value of higher education. And I was really pleased and heartened to hear her bring that up as, as a major theme that our provost are thinking about, and was also jazzed I guess, to hear her say she didn't use these words. But when when she basically said, and by the way, the the tool we need to focus on here to address this issue is is making sure students success works. And, again, she didn't say that, but that's what I heard loud and clear. And I think that's just a reminder that it's all of us that that that is core to the business model of making. Not only the business school work, but frankly the university work. Yeah. And so again, a very, very insightful and thoughtful conversation on her part.

Jim 32:31

Yep. Good session. Really good session.

Dave 32:34

Thank you for listening to this episode of Dean's Counsel. This show is supported in part by Korn Ferry leaders in executive search. Dean's Counsel was produced in Boulder, Colorado by Joel Davis of analog digital arts. For a catalogue of previous shows, please visit our website at Dean's council.com If you have any feedback for us, please let us know by sending an email to feedback at Dean's council.com. And finally, please hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you can automatically receive our latest show