🎙A peer to peer discussion with the Director of the National Center for Principled Leadership & Research Ethics (NCPRE) at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
In this episode of Deans Counsel we delve into the essential leadership skills that can help navigate challenging times. Dr. C.K. "Tina" Gunsalus shares her top tips and guidance from defining your personal "why" (a throwback to Raj Echambadi Episode 33) to fostering a culture of inclusion. These insights offer practical guidance for leaders at all levels.
“To be an effective leader you must be effective at managing this.” Offered Gunsalus.
Learn effective strategies for managing yourself when facing conflict and creating a positive work environment. Explore how you can cultivate a culture of inclusion and foster a sense of belonging in your organization. And gain practical tools for handling tough conversations, including performance reviews and terminations.
“I think [this is] particularly important for difficult conversations,” revealed Gunsalus.
Dr. Gunsalus also shares how to access tools that the (NCPRE) has made available to everyone that provides a way to create a snapshot of the vibrancy and challenges of an academic unit.
This episode, filled with insights and resources from "The College Administrator's Survival Guide" and the National Center for Principled Leadership & Research Ethics (NCPRE), is essential listening for current and aspiring academic leaders seeking to more effectively manage themselves and their teams when facing challenging conversations.
Photos courtesy of Gunsalas
Transcript
Dave 0:13
Welcome to Dean's Council podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists can Kring gemellus and Dave Ikenberry engage in conversation with highly accomplished Dean's and other academic leaders regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Dean's face and one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy. Without a doubt, the role of being dean can be incredibly rewarding. A job that is oftentimes filled with pride, joy and inspiration, knowing the positive impact you can have on others in the world around you. However, it also goes that without a doubt as dean, or in any key academic leadership role, there will be times perhaps too many times where that leader must deal with conflict must deal with difficult situations, including perhaps difficult conversations with difficult people. In this episode of Dean's Council, you listen to some radically practical advice from CK Gonzalez, known to her friends as Tina. Tina is director and principal investigator of the National Center for principled leaders in research ethics, based at the University of Illinois and works with academic leaders of all stripes and at all levels. Tina wrote the book so to speak on the difficulties of academic leadership titled, college administrators Survival Guide, recently updated with a revised edition. Today's episode is filled with nuggets of helpful advice from Tina and so how to handle difficult situations, as well as how to manage yourself and your own emotions. Interestingly, one of her key tools for dealing with those difficult moments Dean's encounter is for us to know your why. This is interesting advice. Right episode 33. You may recall, we interviewed Raj Eck and Body President of the Illinois Institute for Technology. And that episode, Raj also emphasize this very same point on the importance of knowing your why and being grounded in the agenda you wish to accomplish. For Tina, reflecting on this concept of knowing your why can be quite therapeutic and restorative and helping you negotiate through difficult times, and point you toward being a principled values based leader. It's my pleasure today to have a longtime colleague from my days at the University of Illinois with us today. CK Gonzalez. Tina, what a pleasure to have you today.
Tina Gunsalus 2:44
It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Dave 2:47
You bet. Tina, you're an expert, and in helping academics deal with the sticky issues of life, if you will. And as a dean, like it or not, many of us spend more time with sticky issues than we would otherwise. Like. I guess as an initial question, what what advice do you have for Dean's for academic leaders more generally? who just need to handle conflict? Are there things that they can or should do to, to manage, and better tolerate the inevitable conflict that arises as as a nature of the job? Sure,
Tina Gunsalus 3:30
I think the central key for being able to do that is to know going in and to be able to recenter regularly on your why your purpose, purpose matters to human beings and being able to answer the question for yourself. Why did I take this job? I mean, the gig of a full professor in higher ed is a pretty nice gig, right? So you get to follow your thoughts and teach really bright students and interact and change lives. So when you take on a leadership role, I believe that it's really important to be able to articulate why am I accepting these responsibilities? And what are three or four goals for my term of service? I have asked by now literally 1000s of academic leaders this question in workshops or interactions or coaching, and the answer typically boils down to at least for department heads and department heads are where the usually the pool for Dean's comes down to a chance to give something back a chance to grow intellectually. I knew how to do that. And I wanted a bigger canvas bigger pond chance to learn and grow the next step. chance to make a difference on a bigger scale, chance to give back to a colleague or to a discipline or an institution that had made a difference to me. Very often when people take on being ships, they have a idea of how they can leave the place better than they found it so they can bring something to it, revitalize it, re energize it, help the curriculum, improve with facilities improve the quality of students. Typically people when they go into something, they're excited about something, it's important to be going to not from, I think, in this endeavor. And so being able to articulate why you did this, what you're learning how you plan to leave it better than you found it, and to be able to recenter on those, the why, and then two or three goals for your term of service, to recenter, to say, there's a positive reason I'm here, and to sink into that. And so knowing your purpose, I think, makes a huge difference in managing the small or large bumps that come along the way. So for most of the leaders we deal with, when we talk about dealing with conflict, we start with managing yourself. Do I know what my hot buttons are? Do I know what pushes my buttons remarkably often the things that pushes people's buttons are things that grow out of your family or personal life. I know that when I go back and look for what pushes my buttons, I think about some of my siblings who have an uncanny ability to get me spiraling. So what are those things that when somebody does them, you have that disproportionate emotional reaction to I'm not good with powders and soccers. And I'm not good with people who are habitually incapable of making statements that are susceptible to verification liars. So that's my job to know that and to know that when I have that heart pounding, stomach clenching, that's about me, and I need to manage that. And I need to interrupt that process somehow. So the first step is managing your own emotional and physiological reaction. We all have physiological reactions, when somebody pushes your buttons or you face a conflict, so knowing your purpose, managing yourself, and then having some principled goal related reason that you are trying to understand what's happening and what success would look like in the situation. Long answer to a short question. No,
Ken 7:21
good answer. Tina, we suspect most of our listeners will be familiar with your seminal publication, the college administrators Survival Guide, curious to hear your thoughts on how have things changed? And what would you add today? I
Tina Gunsalus 7:38
think it's a great question. Between the first and second edition, I will say that the editor really pushed me hard to include a chapter on dealing with sexual harassment, which I declined to do, because Title Nine has taken things so out of the hands of the academic leaders. I think, today, I would focus more on managing interactions in a hybrid or online fashion. I think that probably even since that revision, the move the pandemic hugely affected how much online we do look at our meeting today. So I would spend more time thinking about how are you intentional about what meetings, you go ahead and say to people? Yeah, sure. I don't care if you're calling from a coffee shop, and which meetings you really want to have in person? And how do you manage the online interactions? I think I would spend a little more time today on the pressures that higher ed as a sector are under and how each of us what each of us brings to the table for thinking about and making things better where we can and I think I would spend a little more time on thinking and being able to articulate clearly to yourself and to others. Why it matters so much and creating cultures of inclusion and belonging. And being able to talk clearly, about the educational value of working effectively with others. There's very little knowledge work that's done in the world today that are is people sitting alone by themselves in a room, creating almost everything is done through teamwork and interaction. And being able to talk about not just the instrumental value of having a heterogeneous group with people not like yourself, because we know that's where creative, there's more creativity when you have a diverse group of people, and also the moral reasons about creating cultures of belonging and inclusion. If we're about creating and disseminating Allergan making the world better. And in a world where we're facing the demographic cliffs of heart that higher education faces, we cannot afford to be wasting intellectual capital. And so everybody ought to be able to have a place where they can learn and grow. And we need to be thinking about how we do that. So I think those are the top things, I would probably go back and think more about, is there something you think that I'm missing there that you would you would have wanted to see more about? No,
Ken 10:29
I mean, I do sense that there's also sort of increasing interdisciplinarity, on the research around issues, particularly some of the issues that you really have some expertise on. And I suspect that that has changed some in you know, at least in the last 15 years or so. We're
Dave 10:49
doing a lot of work right now with team science leaders. And I think you're absolutely right about interdisciplinarity. The work that I do I think of as relentlessly practical. I am a very practical, what can you take away from this, what does matter. And one of the really practical things that we talk about with team leaders and team science is defining vocabulary. Because across disciplines, it is not uncommon that I use words and mean one thing with them, and you use the same word and in your discipline, it carries other weight. And so one of the things very early on is to talk about vocabulary, and clarify who means what, and to have a values based discussion about why are we doing this? Right. What are our interests in this collaboration?
Tina, sometimes, we find ourselves in difficult conversations. Sometimes this happens. We know, you know, we've got a two o'clock appointment, and we know it's going to be a tough conversation. Yes. And then sometimes, we don't know. You know, Ken says, Dave, do you have give two minutes? I just need to get something out. And, and so yeah, what turns out to be a trivial request turns up to be a huge, stressful thing that I didn't think about. Can you talk about? What does the smart leader the principled leader? How did they react to these? How do they get ready for the first one where they know the swing is going to come? And how do they deal with the second one when it seems like an ambush that they actually didn't anticipate?
Tina Gunsalus 12:44
I love that question. We spend a lot of time with the leaders we work with talking about personal scripts, and personal scripts are words that you've prepared in advance and practiced for predictable situations. In effect, what you've done is you've built the neural pathways so that when you're in the moment, in the headlights, you don't just freeze, you have the ability, you have said the words out loud before you've built the neural pathways, the words are accessible to you. And for me, I think about personal scripts in two kinds of categories. One is pre emptive. Were there things that you build into your daily life and you practice them a fair amount, speaking regularly about values and mission? Why are we all here? Why does any taxpayer tuition payer funder donor legislator, why does anyone care that this institution is getting funding? So values and mission? Why are we here? What are we doing, building it into a habit to ask other people about themselves in their interests? So you've you've built that web of personal, caring, and connection. And then for anticipated events where you know, you're coming up on a difficult conversation, and you've practiced the messages, you've thought about it and can articulate the messages you want someone to leave with? And you've said them out loud to someone you trust and said, How did that land on you? What did you hear me say? It is remarkably easy in a really difficult conversation that you've gotten ready for, to have the conversation goes like this. So Dave, well, yeah, like it was. Yeah, I wish I kind of wish kind of hadn't gone that way. So I don't know if you could, it would be better if you know, whatever. And at the end of the conversation, you've never actually delivered the difficult message. Right? So actually practicing it. So that's one category of scripts is where you know, it's where you want to build it into your daily life as part of your role. And the other preemptive is you're practicing, you know, in advance. Then there's a whole series of scripts that I call sort of predictably reactive, right? You know that something's going to happen. You don't know when buying time to think that's when I'm Walking across the quad. I see you can, and I say, oh, can can hear the perfect guy. We need one more person on this committee, somebody senior with good advice, you know, and I really need you. I hope you'll I'm glad you're going to agree to do this. It's only going to be I don't know, about five hours a week for the next 46 weeks. So glad you agreed, thank you write, and write in that moment, you need a script that says, Thank you for asking. I try not to take on commitments that I'm not going to be able to give full justice to let me look at my commitments and get back to you write something where you buy time. That's the one Dave that you need when somebody hits you in the hallway. And all of a sudden, you have that Oh, click wait moment, we're not actually exchanging greetings. We're actually negotiating, or you're asking for something. So sometimes it's, I need some time to reflect. That's a great question. Can We Talk About It Tuesday, I have 20 minutes at two. So there's reactive buying time scripts, right? Then there's scripts that you've prepared for the predictable situation, where you need to call a pause on a topic, or a discussion that just getting off the rails or to hate it. Dave? You know, I think that we've been working with this, we're not making much headway. It's an important problem. You and I both feel strongly about this. How about if we take a break and go get a cup of coffee, walk around the block? And maybe that'll give us some new perspective. And we can try again, you're up for that. Right? So we just have some words ready. My personal favorite of turning the tables and asking others for their solutions. This is my go to and teaching. You're in, you're in a classroom, somebody asks you a question to which you have never given a nanosecond of thought in your entire life? And it's a pretty good question. And my favorite thing in teaching is to say, That's a great question, what does everybody else think? Oh, it buys you time. And aside from that, you often hear really remarkably great ideas. And so it gives you time to collect your thoughts. That's a great question. What do others think you have to be careful about saying, What do you think the best outcome would be here? If I know for a fact that Kim's response is going to be? I'd like to see him shot at dawn on the quad with maximal pain and humiliation? Can you make that happen? So you have to be careful when you ask other people for solutions. In some of the conflict situations, though, where when somebody is bringing you a problem, a problem, a problem, a problem? And you turn to them and ask them, what fixes this? What does success look like here? If we get everything done? What does it look like when it works really well, you can actually sometimes turn the conversation. I think a really important set of scripts is noted positives and other people, catching people doing something wonderful and calling them out for it. I went and did a research ethics thing not too long ago. And the senior most important glittery research intensive chaired professor in the department showed up and came to this thing. I hope that afterwards I said something to him, I hope his department had said to him, You know what, you being there sends a really powerful message to our students that this is an important topic, thank you for spending your time that way that really helps all of us, right, noting something positive. And then I think another set of scripts, it's really important to have in our line of work is agreeing to disagree. I hear you, I respect what you say, I can see how much thought you've put into this. My position, my role requires that I also consider other perspectives. And so I'm not going to be going that way. Thank you for taking the time to think about it and share it with me. And then you have to stop and shut up. Though I think personal scripts are really important. And I think they're particularly important for difficult conversations. So, you know, I used to teach negotiation, and one of the things in teaching negotiation is that you recommend that people spend at least as much time preparing and trying to anticipate what the other person's interests are as your own. And so if you can anticipate particularly for people, you know, well, because we often have very long term relationships in our setting of what their likely response is going to be. What are you going to say? When the person predictively says, this is all about creeping mediocrity, and you are the entire cause of it because you are lowering standards? Because that's their go to refrain? What are you going to say? Have you practiced out loud? Can you say it in words, you're comfortable with Intel, it comes out with sincerity.
Ken 19:36
This is really these are really strike us as transferable leadership skills that really go from division to division. I mean, these are correct fundamental building blocks. So I would say relentlessly practical glamorously practical, fascinating.
Tina Gunsalus 19:55
One of the ones that I will say that people often find most helpful because we have a whole set of scripts So we propose two people for consideration to translate into their own words. One of them is simply I'm not comfortable discussing that. Full stop, right? Another is when you are having to give someone very hard news about their prospects, to say something like, I'm interested in your success, it is my duty to share a candidate evaluation with you. So you know how others will be reading your dossier. And so you can assess and adjust going forward. You do have to actually have an interest in their success, because people have really finely tuned hypocrisy detectors,
Dave 20:39
Deena, sometimes as a leader, we may find ourselves in a dysfunctional unit, you know, a faculty that's fractured or perhaps as a dean, we've got a unit, a division or a department that we perceive as dysfunctional. How do we how do i Is that responsible person approach this sticky wicket?
Tina Gunsalus 21:07
Well, out of years and years of working with Dean's department heads, provosts, mostly academic leaders, I developed something in concert with my colleagues that we call the academic unit diagnostic tool, the audit, and it has 30 items in three different categories. Green, yellow, red, and it's available on the website of the National Center for principled leadership and research ethics. We make it openly available with a common what's what do I want? Yeah, the creative comments, there you go. Creative Commons license, and with some information about how to use it. And the first step is to get a handle on where are the things that this unit has strengths that could be built on and improved. If you think about change management, one of the most effective and powerful change mechanisms is to find something that's working and expand it, find the bright spots, I think is Chip and Dan Heath call it and expand them. So are there things going well here that you could make go better? So that people have see, get a sense of confidence, get a sense of success, get some small wins are their low hanging fruit where you can make things better for people? Where are the things that are deal breakers that you have to deal with right away? And then how do you build a strategy so that you have support from those above you that it is both your responsibility and authority to take those on? Where are there things that are in the FE category that you could move more positively? And where are there things that just have to be addressed. So we ask people to think about the audit tool as a starting place. One of the sort of, I guess, counterintuitive, strategies that we use with dysfunctional units. And I will say the provost seem to hate that title. So we've come to talking about challenged academic units, as opposed to dysfunctional ones provost. But most likely,
Dave 23:12
I would try to be, I was trying to be candid with you.
Tina Gunsalus 23:15
I am, I am a pretty plain speaker. So our annual conference is about transforming challenged units, where we give people a day with a methodology to try to work on, you know, they come to Chicago and sit in a private room and have some facilitators work. And so we start with, you need an overall strategy for where we're going, and then you have to pull the problem apart, pick it apart, pick it apart, pick apart, because the things that you deal with, that deal with unionized employees, for example, might need a completely different strategy than things you would deal with for your faculty, or things that are about how your business functions work. That could by fixing some small things could make life better for a lot of people would take a different strategy than the problems that might be present in dealing with student issues, for example. So you need an overall strategy, excuse me, and messaging theme and concept of who we are and where we're going. And then the problem needs to be picked apart. And the audit with its 30 different items that you try to get an assessment of where we stand on these items, is a nice place for building a picture. And so after the individual leader, the Dean has done that it's often very helpful to do that with your own leadership team. And somebody in the Provost Office who has a view of your college, what are they seeing for this unit? What are where are the complaints coming from? And I do think that it's very important to be able to say and articulate what a success look like. If if you if you know if you come in and or I come in and we sprinkle magic fairy dust on this unit, and things are entirely improved and fixed to you years from now, three years from now, what does it look like? That's different than now what's happening in two or three years that isn't happening now, what isn't happening that is happening now. And have that be part of the overall strategy for moving forward. And we hold this annual conference and people find it quite helpful for leaving with actionable strategies.
Ken 25:22
So we encourage you to say more, I mean, this the center that you direct, and CPRE has a big has a big title, talk some about their mission, vision and sort of how you're executing on it.
Tina Gunsalus 25:37
Where interest interested in institutional integrity, and we're interested in institutional integrity through professional development at every level. So before the pandemic, not anymore. Before the pandemic, we had an ethics outreach for high school and we go all the way through executive education, most of what we do focuses on academic leaders. And so we have online leadership cohorts, for unit executive officers, I would say that's the place that we have the deepest experience. So if you look at my book, for example, a lot of the materials are rooted in that work. We do work with mid career people, team science leaders, we have we've been doing a program with Singapore University in Singapore for going on 10 years now, where it's a year long Leadership Academy for all their academic leaders. All there. So every department chair assistant and associate department chair, the assistant and associate Dean's, the deans have pretty much gone through this Leadership Academy. We are we do some work with mentoring, which is more particularly growing in importance now that people and where have an early career faculty Success program, that's a year long online program, because I think that the environment is very challenging that people come in to his new faculty members these days. And then we have a very large funded program with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. That is a leadership development program tailored for people in the lab sciences. And our belief is that a culture of excellence is one in which it matters, not just what you do, it also encompasses how you do it. And the best way to create and sustain a culture of excellence is where everyone involved gets professional development around leadership starts with leading yourself, being responsible for your own career and how it shaped having the skills to be successful. Because it's not just people who have titles, who are leaders, we all affect those around us every day, we affect people's ethical choices, we affect how they, how they perceive and belong in the environment. So leading ourselves and having the skills to work effectively in environment. And then understanding the issues of power, and how power affects interactions and having the skills to work effectively with others. So it's a lot of soft skills. It's rooted in values, it's rooted in what are your goals? And what is success? And why are you doing what you're doing? So it's I mean, I think you could probably call it virtue centered, its values centered leadership development, and we think everybody in an environment needs access to the skills that include how to have constructive conflict. How do you, what do you do when you have a really serious difference with somebody in your environment? What do you do if somebody is really mad at you? And it's not about what it's about? Right? It turns out that I'm really furious because you bring in something smelly and heated up in the microwave in the break room every day, except what I'm arguing with you about is your data. And I am bringing serious energy to it, not about what it's about. So how do you have the skills to figure out what it's about and how to be effective in moving forward and working with, you know, other human beings who are friend of mine once said that in her next job, there would be no personnel? Because it's the people that make all these jobs. Complicated, right? Yeah.
Ken 29:10
Yeah, we say about the search business. It's a pretty good business if it wasn't for the people. There you go. And your next job, no personnel. Yeah.
Dave 29:20
Tina, what advice do you have for a new dean or maybe an existing sitting Dean who wants to make sure their personal engagements with? Can various constituencies really gets off on the right foot? Are there things that they should do or not to say or not say, you know, are there two or three? Please do these things as you're getting going kind of pieces of advice.
Tina Gunsalus 29:48
I think one of them is to know your why. Right? And to be able to articulate it. The others that I would urge people to cultivate curiosity and go around and spend time listening Think to people, one of the most powerful ways to influence other people is to listen to them. So cultivate curiosity, find out about your colleagues and the people in your environment. People are endlessly interesting. And they will, if you really care and are interesting with it, listening with sincerity, people will tell you remarkable things, they will help you understand why they're there, because I think by the time you get to be a dean, it's less about you than about leveraging the success of others. And the more you know about what for them success means the more successful you can be in supporting them for that. Cultivate curiosity. Yeah,
Dave 30:44
I've heard you talk about listening as a as an essential role really has and leading.
Tina Gunsalus 30:52
As a self serving matter, I would also say consider sending your department heads and chairs to have a dual leadership cohort with us. I've
Dave 31:00
also heard you talk about a concept called depersonalizing conflict, or what is that? How do we recognize it? And and maybe you've touched on this before? So I don't mean to be redundant, but what is it? And how do we? How do we deal with it?
Tina Gunsalus 31:16
Well, people who accept leadership positions generally have both pretty healthy egos and fairly thick skin, or thin skin that they would aspire to have be thicker, because when somebody storms into your office and tells you that it's all your fault, that you're the problem that you're, you know, whatever, you're the source of every evil that's ever happened. It's hard not to take it personally because it is personal at some level. Right? Here you are, you're the leader, you're doing it. And so I think depersonalizing is understanding for yourself in a way that you understand, I am in the role, I am the dean, they're mad at the dean, they might or might not be mad at Dave, they aren't mad at the deep, right? And so to the extent that you Alright, so what I say to people is don't take it personally, which is really not very helpful advice. Don't show that you take it personally, it's okay to go home and you know, kick the ball, the garage, in your role in the moment. If you need to take a break, take a break. And otherwise, keep working at it in terms of the role, the mission, the institution, what we're trying to do here, and don't let it get into be. Yeah, you too. Right?
Dave 32:35
Yeah.
Ken 32:37
How do you think about the continuity of learning? And do you have no 200 level or 300 level courses for cohorts who can come back and have either refresher or build upon their initial experience?
Tina Gunsalus 32:51
One of the things that we try to do in our programs is build cohorts. And some of those cohorts have had alumni meetings. Last year, we added some bonus programs for people who had already been through it before we did one with Ed fazer, who's the provost at Oregon State, on finances of higher education to step back a step and think more broadly about the finances and so big picture and how does that affect local picture. We have done some things, mostly our we tried to start with the foundations. We do try to build, we use a series of tools. And we do try to get people to build their own cohorts and their own resources. We hear from a lot of people after they've been through our programs, and we try to help them find the next step and learning and growing.
Ken 33:39
It's been great learning from you and listening to you today. Thank you so much for being a part of Dean's Council.
Tina Gunsalus 33:46
It's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for asking, and I wish you all the best and hope that you help a lot of people do better in their centering.
Dave 33:55
Thank you again, Tina.
Tina Gunsalus 33:58
Nice to talk to you both.
Dave 34:08
What was your reaction to Tina?
Ken 34:11
Oh, that was a very interesting conversation and brings a lot of insight and real, radically practical advice to us and our listeners.
Dave 34:24
Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, these jobs can be so difficult. They can be they can be glorious, but they can also be so difficult and I think having having a few nuggets of things to to react to when you know when when you've got your that all of a sudden the spotlight is on you and you've got to handle something in a diplomatic way. And And moreover, where the stakes are high enough that if you don't handle it the right way it It can really escalate. And she's so that practical wisdom is just so helpful and so critical, it can really can really separate those of us who are successful in these leadership roles from those of us who are less successful. So kudos for her to be running this center and to be and for her to be so focused on it for such a long time. So I thought it was just
Ken 35:30
so Aibileen smart people in our you know, our listening audience are made up of smart people can have a tendency to overcomplicate things. And it takes a really smart person to be smart enough to not overcomplicate and get down to some of the fundamental building blocks, or question of asking the why. And then, you know, terms of leadership, being able to cultivate curiosity about others very fundamental and common sense.
Dave 36:02
Yeah, yeah. And this role of really listening to somebody, I mean, it's such a, maybe we take it for granted, but it's such a compliment. If I asked you and take the time, to authentically say, tell me what, what's on your mind, you know, this advice that sometimes new Dean's often hear of, you know, go around the entire college and, and spend 15 to 30 minutes with everybody. I did that when I started, but at the end of the day, you're making an investment in them and they will remember that. So helpful, helpful advice.
Ken 36:42
Great session.
Dave 32:34
Thank you for listening to this episode of Deans Counsel. This show is supported in part by Korn Ferry leaders in executive search. Deans Counsel was produced in Boulder, Colorado by Joel Davis of analog digital arts. For a catalogue of previous shows, please visit our website at Dean's council.com If you have any feedback for us, please let us know by sending an email to feedback at Dean's council.com. And finally, please hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you can automatically receive our latest show
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