Transcript

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Dave 0:13

Welcome to Dean's Council, a podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists, Ken Kring, Jim Ellis and Dave eichenberry, engage in conversation with highly accomplished deans and other academic leaders regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Deans face in one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy. Tom Steenberg is the eighth dean of the Owen Graduate School of Business at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, an appointment he started in July of 2023 prior to Owen, Tom held various leadership positions and teaching roles at the University of Virginia and at Harvard. Coming from a research background in marketing, Tom has made remarkable progress in his first year, sharpening the school's strategic direction. To name but a few agenda items, he mobilized the school's various constituents to embrace the new mission statement, technique he found allowed him to authentically meet and thoroughly engage with the faculty and many of Owen's key stakeholders. It was also successful in having Owen retake responsibility for Vanderbilt's existing business minor transforming and uplifting That program's pedagogy. Interestingly, in his first year, Tom has also laid out much of the groundwork needed to establish a second location for Owen in Miami, Florida, where he sees huge strategic economic potential, in which he feels lines up well with the school's revised mission statement, these are all big, heavy lifts for a school which require careful navigation within and among the school's key stakeholders. Without a doubt, Tom's actions clearly validate a key driving principle for him. For Tom, the big ideas are really the ones worth pursuing. We hope you enjoy this discussion with its emphasis on advancing those big ideas and converting a mission driven vision into tangible growth. It's our pleasure today to have Tom Steenberg with us. Tom is the Ralph Owen, Dean and professor of marketing at the Owens School of Management at Vanderbilt. Thank you for being with us today. Tom,

Tom Steenburgh 2:27

oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here. Yeah, yeah.

Dave 2:31

So you've, you've had a wonderful trajectory during your career. Tom, time at Harvard, of course, a lot of time at UVA. And here we are in Nashville, Tennessee, you just wrapped up your first year. How's it going and and from a strategic point of view, you know, what do you see going forward? What are some of the big things that on your Horizon? Thanks.

Tom Steenburgh 2:55

So it's, it's been a great first year. I couldn't be happier. I think anytime you jump institutions, you worry about like, well, when you get there, will it be what you hope it is? And I, I'd say everything I hoped would be here is, is here in Nashville, you know, I think from a, you know, just step back and think about like, Why? Why was I willing to to move? Or, you know, what motivated me to move? I think there's two big things at Vanderbilt. One, I would only consider institutions where you could attract great people, faculty, staff and students. I think Vanderbilt has that ability as a as a university, and that's the starting point from every place I've been, and something I needed to have here. I think the thing that separates Vanderbilt from other schools, in my mind, as I talked to the chancellor about the opportunity and the provost, was they're willing to do things differently, and they're willing to think creatively about how to approach opportunities. And, you know, I have yet to be told no yet by the Chancellor, if you have an idea, he's very encouraging. You push things forward. I think that's a little different than a lot of academic institutions, which tend to be slower to move the there's a forward looking nature here that I really, really appreciate at the at the school, you know, from a from a strict strategy standpoint, and thinking about like, Well, what do we want to develop as a school, there's, there's lots of different directions we can, we can take this, this question, you know, I could say, from a from a philosophical standpoint for myself, I think about like, well, what's happening in the world today, what's, what's different about the world of business, and how do business schools have to adapt to that, To take advantage of macro trends in in the world. I had done a bunch of work with Siemens over the years and their strategic Account Management Group. You know, these are people at the company that would carry like, 500 million euro territory. So they're basically running a small a small business as a. As a high level salesperson, and the way Siemens always thought about the world was, was that way? It's like, well, what are the macro trends? Then how do I build an organization to take advantage of that? And so for me, you know, things that motivated me, in addition to the attitude towards growth at Vanderbilt, is that Nashville is a city that's absolutely on fire economically. When I was living in Midtown, in a high rise, I had eight brains outside my window. It's a very diverse economy, and you're in the middle of a city, you know. So at Darden, where I had previously been, it's a smaller community. Has its its own set of strengths for for a residential program here, it's a different set of strengths that you can take advantage of. But who wouldn't be happy about being in a school that has a really economically diverse economy in the city and and some real strengths to build upon? You know, it's and that's how we're thinking of developing the school.

Ken 6:02

Hey, Tom Ken Kring, great to see you and hear you as we dig in a little be interesting to us to hear whether there are either surprises that you came upon your first year, either you know, in proportion or in direction that you hadn't anticipated, not

Tom Steenburgh 6:22

not huge surprises. I think if anything of moves, this has been one where most everything I thought was true was true. And that's not always the case. I had an uncle once that took a CEO job, and then there had been some malfeasance financially, and he had to restate earnings and all sorts of stuff. And that's a jump that it's always stuck with me. It's like, Hey, you don't really know what you're going to get when you go. And this one has been really, really good. So I talked about strength of of the city, you know, like most places, the Executive Education function here was, you know, sort of like, not as robust as it could have been, following covid, we've been able to really start to rebuild that. So, you know, that's something we thought would be a strength in the city and and is it's definitely there, right? I think we have an opportunity to build on our EMBA and our Executive MBA programs that in the long run, we can take advantage of that too. Again, that's location driven growth there, and I think the entrepreneurship area, Vanderbilt's really primed to grow there, and I've been able to raise a significant amount of money to support that at the university level. University talks a lot about collaboration across schools. I think the model here supports that really well. I was hoping that that would be true. And I think as a rule, that's that's generally true. And I mean, I've seen lots of different models. Harvard, the business school, is its own thing and and, you know, today, it interacts some with other parts of the university, but not as much as, let's say, other places. I liken Vanderbilt more to Yale, where you were encouraged to use the whole university, and I think I was told that that's the case, and I believe that that is the case. And then in areas like entrepreneurship, where, if you look at the market, where unicorn founders come from. The three biggest areas are, are the business school, engineering and data science, and then there's a long tail of medicine, economics, mathematics, that that also has at least as many as any of those three unicorn founders coming from. What that says is, you want to be at a university where you can collaborate with other people and bring these business ideas to life. So that's a real strength of the university. I think we're well positioned to take advantage of that in in the long run, and that's been a pleasure to see that that's roughly true. And I'm not saying that everyone collaborates and gets along all the time. We talk about radical collaboration, and I think we do it pretty well. There's always some friction in that. We do push each other to get better, but it's a hell of a lot better than many other institutions for for sure. So So those have all been really, really, really positive things.

Dave 9:15

Tom again, staying at a strategic level. One of the decisions you've tentatively, well, I say tentatively, I don't mean it to be tentative, but it's, you're in an early phase. Is, is you're, you've, kind of, you're kind of striking out in the direction of Miami, yeah. How does that fit in with the broader strategic context that you're trying to execute and and then kind of give us again, staying at a high level, you know, why Miami? What are some of the your goals in Miami and just kind of help us, you know, more, that's a big move while you're still unpacking your bag, so to speak.

Tom Steenburgh 9:51

Yeah, yeah. I So, I think there's, there's lots to that to unpack, right for a strategic level. So I love the, I love the question. I can talk a bit about both disposition of the school, and then let's start though with, with why, why Miami, and how we, how we approach things at at Vanderbilt. So I if you look at the economics of of top business schools, a large part of your budget comes from places or comes from your endowment, and you know where wealth has been created. So business schools are are generally in good positions in a university because of the generosity of of our alumni, and we're also in a good position in the sense of like we're more adept at capitalizing on market trends, we're more outwardly focused and inwardly focused. So if I think of like big macro trends that I talked about earlier with like, you know, in the in the Siemens vein of thinking, or in a corporate vein of thinking about it, you know, one is that innovation entrepreneurship are going to play a bigger role. So we pay, pay some attention to that. Another is just in general, there's a huge flight of capital south in the United States. And so I talked about the economic boom in in Nashville. The same thing is happening in Miami and South Florida and West Palm West Palm Beach, like the whole area of South Florida is really on on fire economically and, you know, so when we think about places where we could have impact in the world, if we're going to have another location that would be a good location for us, I mean, in one sense, it's consistent with with who we are. Like, if I could be known as something, as a school, I would like to be known as the school that focuses on economic growth in whatever form it comes. I'm a marketer. By by background in my teaching, I never encourage students to go into marketing. I was here, really to support them in whatever they wanted to do. I know that marketing matters. I know that sales matters. So what I did. It was important. No matter what they what they did. I think as dean, I have a similar sort of mindset. Is like, I we need to know what we're capable of. Our capabilities matter, but we also have to have an outward focus and think about, where's the economy developing, you know, and then what can we do to participate in that? And if I, if I look at South Florida from an opportunity standpoint, this is not one where we're trying to get to a new geography just to get to a new geography sake. This is one where we're going to an environment where there's huge economic growth. It's a southern city, but it's also maybe there's a nice international flavor to it, because you have access to to Latin America. It's, it's, there's growth ahead in that area. It has some strengths that we can build on internally. So a lot of lot of growth in the financial industry, and we have strength in finance at at Owen. So if you look at both the external view of like, this is a place that's going to continue to grow, maybe is underserved as as a whole, given the influx of people in for for business students, and we actually have something to say about that. It's a pretty good location for us to to get to. It seems consistent with our brand to be, to be focused on growth. I think dispositionally, we're, we're willing to take those chances. I might, I might expand on that. So that's the external view of why we might be interested in it, and there's some risk to a move like that, like with with most capital campaigns, with the university, but you'd said it's, it's tentative. Well, you know, maybe that's a, that's a, that's an okay marker. I won't say it's tentative in the sense like we're actively pursuing it, but there's risk, right?

Dave 13:57

Yeah, now, I was trying to create this notion of, there's still a lot of pieces that need to get in place, but,

Tom Steenburgh 14:07

yeah, it gives me agita to the but the idea here is, like, what is failure? You know, I think that really gets to the heart right, and my personal disposition, and why I feel at home at Vanderbilt is like failures not pursuing big ideas, like that's what we would miss most. And so the view here is like, we'll take a swing, we'll see if we can raise the money, huge capital campaign that unfortunately, we're going to have to do publicly, unlike most universities. And it might, might, there's some chance it doesn't work out. We're very optimistic. We have great partners, but we're talking about raising lots and lots of money in a short period of time, and there's risk in that. It's worth taking that risk and taking it publicly. Right? Because we view failure. I view failure as not pursuing the big ideas and and I desperately the drive, the fundamental drive that I have is to create interesting things in the world. By nature, I'm a builder, and you have to take risk to be able to do that. You'd prefer if you could do that more privately in some cases, but you know, honestly, if you know, if this doesn't work out, we'll, we'll try three or four other big things that that will and I think the university, the chancellor, has it the right disposition towards that. So, so for me, it just feels like Right place, right time, and it's different than other other places, for sure.

Ken 15:44

On that note, Tom, talk more about how you've mobilized, strategy, sort of, what of the, you know, what are the, what are the tactics? Have you? What did you inherit? What have you imported? Yeah, how have you mobilized? You know, created enthusiasm for it. What's it look like?

Tom Steenburgh 16:06

Yeah, so I think Ken, it's a great question, because the first year is so interesting. As an outsider coming in. You know what I thought I would get as a as a community where the alumni are tight, it's a smaller program. We talk about being, let's say, collaborative, not cutthroat, would be a you know, so it's a supportive community and and you want to figure out, like, what people are about as you come in. So my first year, one of the things we did is we rewrote the mission statement, and we've adopted or reaffirmed the set of values to support that mission statement, I spent a lot of time on the road, interviewing alumni, doing I did one on ones with all the faculty, small group meetings with all the staff, and just trying to figure out, like, what it's about. Writing the mission statement was super helpful for forgetting, let's say, the vibe of the place, and what we came up with is something that's forward looking. We said our mission is creating opportunities to discover, grow and thrive in business and beyond. And so what opportunities look like. We view our role as creating the possibility of a new business for a student, or the possibility of of interdisciplinary research for faculty that's cutting edge. You know, what are we're about the the, you know, the dream of higher ed is changing your lot in life and learning something. So I feel like an aspirational mission statement that's still true to who we are. I I really enjoyed that process, and then the stories that people told, you know, like, how Owen helped change your life is inspirational. That's why, that's why people come to come to work. So that's that's our our mission, and that's consistent, and then our values to support that mission. Basically are two things. It's three sets of things that lead to intrinsic motivation that's some autonomy, having mastery in in an area, and a sense of belonging, creating meaningful connections with others. And then this idea of collaboration would be the fourth pillar the first three years, there's research that shows that that's basically what drives intrinsic motivation and collaboration. So those are, those are our values and and people feel a sense of pride of coming to school with that. Now there's another set of stuff, like, how do you get from that to South Florida, let's say or, or, like, a vision for investing in student businesses, for entrepreneurship. And then there's a whole bunch of programmatic work that has to go into that. I'd say what I inherited was a great situation for me, almost ideal, and there were some challenges with it as well. So we had just come off of the previous Dean had just finished off a capital part of the capital campaign. We're still in our big campaign, but the part dedicated towards a building renovation was done, and we have this new building. It's It's awesome, right? The building's beautiful. They did a wonderful job of creating more space while integrating the it with the old architecture, and it still has a forward looking and more modern vibe, let's say, than than some of the other places, which I think is suitable for a business school, but also that creates a lull, you know, I walked in not knowing anyone three years left in a capital campaign, having to hit the road to do fundraising, and not really inheriting a programmatic strategy for going up, going about that and and so what I've done, internally and externally, sort of think about, well, what is it that we want to develop, where can we have impact on the world? And then what are areas where we can actually go out and raise money that people would be excited about? I mean, I think any Dean, given the. Competition in MBA. MBA market will take money for scholarships. That's a no brainer. Anyone wants money for we'll take it, but you have to have more than that, because donors are interested in so many different so many different things. So then you think about, where can we make a huge difference in a student's life? And then, how can we help a donor see that sort of impact? You know, entrepreneurship is one where most people get it. The economy's changing. It's not like when I was a kid. People have 40 years careers at Xerox, that world is gone. And if you look at where entrepreneurs, sort of, like, hit their stride, it's even a little bit after business school often that it happens, but we need to prepare them for those types of careers where there's change and so we can raise money there. I had one of the things that we've also started this year at Owen that's completely different is that we took over the undergraduate business minor, so it's a liberal arts college. The undergraduate program is really important. If you look over the last 20 years, huge growth in undergraduate business education, that's part of the pressure on on the residential MBA, and we're taking more of a role in that. I was able to get some some seed money from from a donor in entrepreneurship, and then seed money for a donor from a different donor in finance, and we just work backwards, you know. So we want our undergraduate students to have careers in investment banking. To do that, you need to have an internship at one of the top banks, like Goldman, Evercore and the many other big, big banks between your junior and senior year, you interview for that job at the end of your sophomore year. So this last summer, we were able to put in a program where we funded Wall Street prep for our undergrads. You know, it's all co curricular type of activity where what we're trying to do is make our students as prepared for that investment banking job market as a student that goes to to Penn, and when we went out to the alumni base, and our, our alums in investment banking, they just stepped right up, you know, right, like, right, like that. They're like, yeah, I get it. And I want Vanderbilt to compete at that level. Like we see ourself as as and they see us as being, you know, this, this institution where dreams can happen, and so they're willing to fund it. And we're, you know, this next fall again, we move quickly. Here we have a seminar series for undergrads co curricular. So not not for credit, although we're changing some of the curriculum within finance as well, where they can talk with people at the big banks, talk with people in venture capital or in in entrepreneurship, so that they understand what what it is that they need to do to develop in their career. And I, you know, I think philosophically, none of us may like the fact that more practical things are being shoved earlier and earlier into a student's education, but we need to adapt to the market, and it's a war for talent, so we need to help our students be, be engaged. So that sort of backward induction process is, is how we go about things, and we our alums just really want to help with with that. It's awesome.

Dave 23:16

Um, from at a strategic level, you've had an amazing first year. You've rewritten the mission statement, which is a little bit of a lift by itself, this business minor, which I am, I'm so proud of how you're approaching this from high volume, high quality point of view, high high campus impact. You've pointed your flag in the direction of South Florida. I mean, these are big ideas, and you, I could, we've heard already how you've, you've kind of shaped, directly or indirectly, the attitudes of the various constituencies. But I was wondering if you could drill, drill down just a little bit deeper into tools and techniques, tricks of your trade, so to speak. You know,

Tom Steenburgh 24:05

yeah,

Dave 24:07

like all great problems, there's not one solution. There's a half a dozen of them. So what are these? You're clearly thinking about this in a very careful way. How are you? How are you executing that, that strategy,

Tom Steenburgh 24:20

it's, it's, I think it's street fighting, really, in the sense of, like, one on one or one on small group, sort of discussions. There's, there's some philosophical things that I try to to live by, right? It's a lot of so I think let's go back to to what you started with. Like, yeah, there's a lot of change here. Like, that's been a theme of what we've been talking about, right? If you think of people, not everybody's has the same degree of comfort with changes. I might, right? So I might be extremely energized by this. I actually not. Might. I am extremely energized, and other people are not, you know, like, that's how we're going to say. Innovations work, we're all we're all different. And some people, particularly in higher ed, like how we were, you know, Owen, historically, has been a little bit more of an island, and that's changed over the years, and maybe I've accelerated that even a little bit more about integration into the university, like we're playing a bigger role at the university, and that's that can be hard. I think one of the things that that I try to do is that if I have big initiatives, I'd like to bring people along with me, and I'd like to learn from them. So, you know, so for me, I don't need to, doesn't have to be my idea that wins. It has to be that the best idea wins. And I try to go in front of the faculty, I try to go in front of the staff, in front of students, and explain why it is we're doing what we're doing. And I think if most, most people, if they think you're being thoughtful, if they realize that you have a plan, they're they're willing to give you the benefit of the Dao. So I, you know, I do a lot of trying to get in front of the faculty and explain the ideas before they happen, and give people an opportunity to object. And when I have tough decisions, I do the same thing, like i i in the middle of a reorg. Part of that is to help us take advantage of some of these other things. I'll go in front of the whole community and explain why it is we're doing what we're what we're doing. I think that's important for every leader to do. It's very hard. I'm not shy about dissent or conflict. I think it's just part of the part of the job, and sometimes it's not a fun part of the job, right? But, but engaging in those discussions, I think, over time, is what builds trust.

Dave 26:47

You know, as a as a quick follow up, you mentioned just a moment ago, and it was my personal experience here at Colorado, is there's, you know, about a third of the people are just gung ho. You've got a third of the people in the middle, and then you've got a third of the people who are maybe a little hesitant or or worse, how do you deal with that last third, that third that is not that comfortable with dealing with the potential for failure? Yeah,

Tom Steenburgh 27:14

I think there's multiple strategies. But behind that, I think one is listening to what the, what the real fear is, is, is the key, right? And then seeing, you know, so if we have these big ambitions, I let's, let's use something, something tangible. We have an ambition to build, you know, something in South Florida. First thing faculty will ask is like, what does this mean for me? Do I have to now teach down there? Not all of you, some of you will be able to stay here in Nashville. In fact, I could probably build the whole campus without using any of the people in Nashville. I won't need to do that, because I'll have a set of people that would love to be down there in January. I would, I would be so helping them see that their life doesn't have to change, and that things that are intrinsically important to them, we will try to maintain. So for us, one of the things that alumni care deeply about, faculty care students care deeply about is like our our size, they get to know each other. It's a it's a tight community. Well, actually, the geographic expansion helps with that. We kind of a small class here in Nashville, a small class down in in South Florida, and together, we're much bigger and we have more resources to work off of. So acknowledging sort of the strengths of where we've been, I and showing people that not everything's going to change is important. I think also that that last third, you know, some people might be better off elsewhere, and by helping them get to the place where they're excited to do their best work is is useful. And you know, my experience from corporate to, you know, to higher ed has been sometimes you get people that are stuck in their career and they may not like moving on. You may have to help them move move on even. But I have a true belief that I'd like to help people do their best work and and going out of my way to sort of finding roles that help people thrive in whatever it is, whether it's in the school or outside the school, is a commitment that will make. And I, I think that's that's a tough one, in the sense of the proof will be in the pudding. Like, can you, Are you really willing to stick with people? Are you really willing to make calls or to help them find the work they want. And just set of people don't want your help out. You know, if you if you are going to make tough, tough decisions. But I think over time, that commitment shows shows forward. And if you're caring, you can, you can build trust that way, and and some people you won't win over. I mean, that's it. Yeah, I think that's true of every organization, though it's, it's harder higher ed, because we have tenure and and it's just more slower moving in in general. But you know, that's, that's kind of how I think about it.

Ken 30:15

On sort of a related note, maybe it's the flip side. Are there ways with the mill, if you will, that you're able to honor their initiatives, inspire their initiative, so that, not not cynically, but so that some of the ideas actually come and cultivate are cultivated, yeah, from the faculty. Yeah,

Tom Steenburgh 30:36

can that's, that's why I love doing this job, and that's why I love, I love being here like I, you know, when faculty feel like they have agency, and they feel like they can get stuff done, they have awesome ideas, and they get energized by that. And you just try to give, you know, throw gasoline on, on the on the startup of fire so it gets, it gets bigger. And, you know, you you pour energy into it. So I love, I love that. And you know an example of of that from my from my previous stop when covid hit. Nobody knew what the hell it is that they were doing, like nobody had any sense of how this how the world of work. So we ran weekly faculty meetings to talk about how we can preserve the way of case method teaching. It was, you know, that was what, what we did at Darden, and have that close connection with students, but translate it into a new vehicle. And I had different faculty every week present, like, what how they were thinking about it, and add ideas. And it was amazing the number of people that bought in. But that idea of harnessing faculty ideas and energy, giving them some sense of control over it, that's what leads to intrinsic motivation, you know. So this autonomy is one of the key pillars, one of the three key pillars in intrinsic motivation. So you need to give that to to faculty. That's what I mean. It's such the faculty role is such an intrinsically motivated thing. Like, nobody should do this job unless they really, really want to do it. So, so it's like, how do you, how do you lean in to their ideas? And that's why I feel like I don't need, don't anything. I'd probably do things a little bit differently than than faculty. But who the hell cares? Like, yeah, I take a motive other person. I need a team in my role to get done. So we try to encourage that to the best possible we can

Dave 32:42

Tom this has just been an outstanding half an hour. It seems like it's gone by in a blink. You've, I think you've really raised a tremendous number of really interesting, strategic ideas and and it'll be, it'll be enjoyable to to reflect on this conversation over the over the years to come. I just thank you so much for your time.

Tom Steenburgh 33:07

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed our our discussions and getting know you a little better, Dave and and it's great to see you again, Ken. I, I, you know, I have to say my dad was a dean. This is something that I always thought about, thought about doing. It's a, it's a strange job in some ways, like it's, you go from being an independent faculty member to someone who's leading a bunch of independent faculty members. It's, it's so motivational to be in higher ed and have the opportunity to contribute to, you know, an institution, it's important for society and and be able to talk about these ideas of like, where, where business education is going, where education is going. I appreciate it.

Dave 33:53

Talking about independent faculty, I'm reminded of the famous quote from Clark Kerr out in California, who said that faculty are a bunch of independent entrepreneurs with a common parking problem, yeah? Like that. Well, anyway, he's right. Thank you so much for your time. Tom

Ken 34:11

Great to see you and hear you. Yeah? You too. You

Dave 34:23

Ken, that was, what an enjoyable half hour. That was, what were some of your big takeaways? Yeah,

Ken 34:28

he's really, he's really great. I mean, I think he's a superb communicator, very likable, strategic, my goodness, heat has taken on a lot in a first year from coming from another, another institution, and made it sound like it's been a joy,

Dave 34:47

right, right? He sure has. I also, I really like and appreciate how he has started at a strategic level, both, first of all, trying. Get to know everybody. But second, you know, really making sure people are on the same page strategically. You know, for example, you know, getting that mission statement collectively revised and engaged, and then following up quite quickly with very specific actions that reinforce that strategic message. I think the other thing I could not help but, and I wrote it down word for word is, you know, change is hard, and it's harder for some people than another, and I really he, he defined failure, and I'm kind of writing or reading word for word, failure is not pursuing the big ideas. That's a wonderful line to really help with your faculty who may be grappling with and struggling with the change agenda. And I wish I had that in my back pocket years ago when I was tackling some of these things. But yeah, what a wonderful leader Owen has, and it's going to be fun watching what happens over the next half a dozen years there,

Ken 36:08

yeah, and tying everything back to that, you know, what could be a laborious process of rebuilding your mission statement is is going to, is going to pay off in multiples as as it goes, because you can tie things back to things that we all agreed upon.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Deans Counsel. This show is supported in part by Korn Ferry leaders in executive search. Deans Counsel was produced in Boulder, Colorado by Joel Davis of analog digital arts. For a catalogue of previous shows, please visit our website at Dean's council.com If you have any feedback for us, please let us know by sending an email to feedback at Dean's council.com. And finally, please hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you can automatically receive our latest show