Show Transcript

Dave 0:13

Welcome to Dean's Council podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists can Kring gemellus and Dave Ikenberry engage in conversation with highly accomplished Dean's and other academic leaders. Regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Dean's face and one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy. There is little doubt that Judy olien is one of the most well known and easily recognized leaders in business education. Today, of course, she served as a university president. After holding two high profile Dean ships at Penn State and at UCLA for 17 years collectively, and remarkably transforming both institutions. Judy assumed the presidency of Quinnipiac in July of 2018. In this interview, we hear some wonderful insight into how these Dean ships along with some other key broadening experiences she had early in her career, but a mentally prepared her to be an effective president. Judy provides key interesting insight as to where business school Dean's have a natural comparative advantage, and also points out key areas of potential weaknesses when it comes to these broad higher education roles. If you know Judy, to any extent, you know, she's not only a strategic visionary, but perhaps more importantly, a seasoned executive who can efficiently and effectively drive change. As such, we also hear important tips on how one should approach achieving that, and why identifying key talent as you build your team is so important, particularly as you progress to higher levels of responsibility in the university. Jim cannon, I hope you enjoy this fascinating episode of Dean's Council.

Judy Olian 2:03

My Dean's Council colleagues and I are delighted to be in the presence of Judy Olian. Today, Judy is the President at Quinnipiac University of great relevance to our audience, but also of relevance is her long at accomplished experience. As a two time dean at both Penn State Smeal and the Anderson School at UCLA. Judy brings unique and outstanding experience. And we're just delighted to have the opportunity to talk about some of your time in both your roles proceeding but also as a university president. Thank you, Judy. Welcome.

Well, thank you. And it's great to be among three friends here. And back in the world of business school deeming. And AACSB. Great to have you.

So maybe to begin it just be interesting to hear you talk some about becoming a university president, what prepared you what from your experience as a dean more than once? What were your surprises? What did you find in taking on this new enterprise wide role?

Well, thank you. And, and I do really remember with great fondness, my interactions with each of you, but also my time as a business school dean. And it was really two and a half times because I was Interim Dean before that University of Maryland. One of the things that really helped me is the breadth of vision of higher education that I got to have in two capacities. One was as I moved up through the volunteer roles of AACSB, and I became chair of AACSB, when AACSB was really accrediting the first global business goals. This was quite a while back. And, you know, I got to see, I think we accredited Xing y University at the time, some of the French universities, I remember going to New Zealand. And that gives you a view of so many alternative models of universities, that was really helpful. And it came about because of a volunteer role. And then the second part was that when I was at UCLA, and by the way, I ended up at UCLA because they had spotted me because I chaired their accreditation. And some months later they came back and said, Would you be interested in the deanship? And so volunteering and broadening your view of higher education I think is very helpful. The second role that was really instrumental was that when I was at UCLA, they had a council of professional Dean's that I think was the cow So that included the 14 professional schools of the 19 at the time at UCLA, all but the traditional arts and sciences. And I was chair of that for a while, and I sat on the President's executive committee or cabinet, whatever it was called. But I got to see and hear a lot about other parts of the university, the other professional schools. And when you become a president, you become a president of all the schools, and not just your own school. And that was very helpful to me in getting some breadth of understanding. Quinnipiac is, is a 9000, student, university, undergraduate and graduate. But it's eight professional schools, and one, Arts and Sciences school and their professional schools include medicine, law, business, education, engineering, nursing, health sciences, communications, and it's important to be able to see the whole and to see the intersections of the hall. And that was very helpful in preparing me for the nuances of decisions and issues that are priorities in the different schools. So one of the messages is, to the extent that you can look at your career not as a pyramid, but as an inverted pyramid, where you're actually not doing just this and narrowing your focus, but you're actually broadening your focus, and have a vision across functions, across disciplines, across schools, and some of the complexities of just the administrative roles that go into running a new university like finance, though I think business school Dean's are more equipped than most to worry about that, like the managerial aspects of running University. One of the things that I do now is spend a lot of time on Division One athletics, and other than having been a spectator before. I sure as heck didn't know the nuances of that. Nobody could have known what's going on right now in NCAA, Division One athletics, but that's a big world that can really run you into the ground if if you're not having some understanding of it, and know how to support it right? We were fortunate enough to win a national championship last year, in men's ice hockey, believe me, what that does to the branding of the university is almost unparalleled other than if you win the football or the basketball, March Madness championship, but you have to know what that brings to the culture of the institution, how that impacts the relationships with donors, and alumni, and what kind of financial investments and prioritization you want to make. So that was one other thing, I think is important. If I can add one more thing. I think that the business school deans are very equipped on outside relationships, especially business, corporate, and donor relationships. But even if you're a private university, which we are now, and certainly if you're a public university, you have to be out there, understanding relationships in the community, from the governor on down and embedding yourself in, in places of influence and with influencers. Because whether you need planning and zoning to approve a new building, or whether you have to worry about the taxes that they might impose on a nonprofit, which you are a university, or managing the real estate in the community that you on as a university. All of this is about community relations. And you almost have to have eyes at the back of your head as well as in the front of your head and, and I think business school Dean's are equipped for that on the corporate side and the donor side but not necessarily on the community side.

Dave 9:35

Interesting. Hearing on this theme of broadening your horizons to various experiences God one experience you did not partake in, which is common, a common pathway to the presidency is tour of duty through the Provost Office. Could you share with us? Was that an intentional decision on your part and the that help or hinder your your, your course.

Judy Olian 10:03

So I think it's a, it's partially a function of demand and partially a function of my own decision making. In comprehensive universities are one universities in particular, there's more comfort with people that come out of the traditional sciences or even law, and sometimes even the healthcare professions. I think there is less comfort with putting a business school person in there who may not be trusted to understand as deeply the internal, intellectual, and intersectional aspects of running a university interdisciplinary and so on. Right. So I think part of it is that there might have been a slightly steeper hurdle to overcome as a business school person coming into the provost office. But the other thing is, I felt that exactly what I said before, that a provost is more internally focused, a president is more externally focused not at the expense of the other side. But just in terms of some of the waiting. And I think that business school Dean's are born to be more externally focused, more equipped for fundraising more equipped for corporate relations, and understanding of the finances of a university. And I just felt that the transition from business school dean to President was, in some regards, even better than the transition from Provost to President, because a provost is so internally focused, and certainly the provost has seen it all, but hasn't necessarily done all of the things that a president has done on the outside. And it's not that I know the internal things. On the contrary, I'm quite involved. But also the provost is a lot more involved internally. But I'm a lot more involved externally in external partnerships. I happen to chair co chair, the Governor's Commission or body on economic development and engagement of attracting and retaining businesses in the state. It's because of my background, and not just because I'm a president. And I think that that is one of those strengths that business school, Dean's can really leverage. Now, if you're inclined to do the internal interdisciplinaire, interdisciplinary, internal splitting the baby that is required from Provost and being more internally focused, by all means go that way. And it might be easier to get into the president's office. I think that there is a more natural progression from business school leaning into the presidency than might be from the Provost Office. Judy,

for our listeners, your external initiatives started fairly early, both in corporate governance and AACSB. Just wondering sort of how deliberate you were how conscious you were of sort of building that breadth of the inverted pyramid,

it actually started much earlier than that, while I was still an Associate Professor, even before I became full at Maryland, I somehow had this extra interest in, in the Boundary Spanning activities at the time at the Business School, which was a Smith School. And he you know, deans, chairs of departments are always asking for volunteers to do something extra. And usually you say, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I got to do my publishing, perish my research. I got my teaching. I got my outside issues. I tended to say yes, more than many. And I tended to get enjoyment out of those boundary spanning activities. So early on in my career, I was an AC fellow, American Council of Education fellow. And I ended up in the Maryland president's office. And I ended up staying there as an assistant to the president for a second year, and ended up winning this IBM grant on total quality that established this program between business and engineering that still exists today, which is business engineering, and I think mathematics that is called the quest program there. So I started early on because I liked The Boundary Spanning things. And I think one of the things you have to decide whether you're deciding on becoming a dean, or becoming a president is number one, what do you like doing? And number two, what are you good at, and maybe better at than other people. So I think that there were Rockstar researchers that were better than me at research. But I was pretty good at those boundary spanning difficult things that other people might have shied away for, or said to heck with it, I'm not doing that. Or, you know, even some of the permissions that I had added, or reports that I was responsible for, I tended to get intellectual enjoyment, and satisfaction out of when other people might have thought of them as a chore. So you got to figure out, I mean, you can't go into a demeaning role or a presidency, and make it be an endless exercise in suffering, you have to feel that this is something that you're good at and that you enjoy. I mean, we turned UCLA Anderson into a self supporting school, the only self supporting school, frankly, in the entire UC system. And it was a very challenging battle of four years or so of stops and starts and no votes and then overturned votes and no votes again, and overturned, and yet to go multiple layers through the university, and then through the system wide thing in Auckland. And it was, you know, just tiring, but I always felt well, yes, we're gonna get through that. And I don't mind the setbacks, because I can find other ways, and I was resilient enough to do it. But if this is not a thing for you, it'll be exhausting. And it's not just if you're good at it, you have to like it, to not be daunted by it, you have to have pretty thick skin. It's not a popularity contest. It's nice to be liked. But that's not going to be the objective, you have to be willing to put forth. Some tough objectives that you know, are not going to be a straight line to get to but you're willing to put the effort in and and you're not daunted by them. Excellent.

What kind of surprises have you had in coming to Quinnipiac and and how have you adapted to those new surprises?

I think that COVID was a test for everybody. And one of the very positive surprises for me here, and we were pretty much present. With all of the limitations we didn't, we were only shut down for three months. And then the governor allowed us to open and be present with all of the restrictions that were there. But we were on ground, and to see how a community can rally around a shared purpose was very gratifying. And the focus on on students the understanding that there are cultural differences across different universities. And in the culture that I found here was very gratifying. I followed a president who was here for 31 years, I think I know something about change management. But you never know quite what you're walking into the strengths. And the strengths of the student focus here were quite remarkable. But also change takes a while, because systems are built around certain traditions, and customs and policies. And so it isn't just saying, we're changing the policy. We're changing what we're doing here. It means that you've got to change all kinds of systems, and sometimes people underneath them. One of the most gratifying things that has happened here is the development of a new team. It was understandable that there would be changes in the team after a 31 year presidency and many people who were in their jobs for a long, long time, and many of them said, I've had a great run enough. But the fact of going through changes in people isn't enough, because systems are built around, you know, how do you do parking at a certain institution? How, what are the billing cycles of a certain institution? How do you do tours at a certain Institute Should, I mean, those are things that are fundamental to, for example, enrollment management. So you can't just say we're changing the policies around enrollment management, it means that you have to change all of the levels that go underneath them, including all of the people in terms of their practice. So obviously, we have some great people who have been here for years and years and years. But it means that you have to change all of the levels of systems and the way people operate, to achieve change. And when you've had somebody here for five years, the roots are shallower than when you've had somebody who's been here for 10 years, over 31 years. And so the roots get very deep, and the systems take a longer while to change. But I think that once you galvanize people around a shared purpose around the shared strategy, it is actually very gratifying to see how that how that occurs.

Dave 21:04

Judy, could, could you build on that? Could we drill down just a little bit more, you know, so for example, you you want to make a push in enrollment management, which is easy to point at what tools techniques other than just time and repeated messaging? Was there anything else in your toolkit to help open up those eyes that had been fossilized over 31 years?

Judy Olian 21:29

I think that the higher up you are in an organization, the more delegation that has to occur, right. And therefore, the the reliance on the capabilities of people who are around you, is greater. So I, I couldn't delegate as much as when I was a dean. Because I didn't have so many people to delegate to here, the key responsibility is to get the right people on the bus, a fantastic team, who then execute around a shared purpose. So my responsibility is to create shared understanding that we all know where the heck the bus is headed. And then everyone fans out and does their own thing. So it would be fatal if I tried to stick my fingers into every aspect of what we're trying to do. But once we set a goal, you have to make sure that you have great people. And we do from before and new people that are going to strategize about how to execute and execute. And so so my first responsibility was really the right people on the bus. And my my board. And I want to talk about the board in a moment, my board was a bit impatient with me because I move fast. But it still takes a while to get a team in place. But that was so important in being able to execute, and to have strategic coherence as you go across the institution. One thing that I would say also about the role of Dean, as preparatory in business schools, more so than in many other places is that business school deans are typically used to dealing with powerful boards. The board I had at UCLA, Anderson before that, at Penn State was a powerhouse board. And even though it wasn't a fiduciary board, because we were Republicans to tution, they called an advisory board, but they treated themselves and I treated them as a fiduciary board. And you have to be comfortable dealing with a board that hires and fires you as the president, and know how to deal with those relationships, and leverage the power of the board in terms of advisory guidance, networking, and yes, philanthropy. And I think that as a business school, Dean, if you can derive experience in that you will be way ahead of the curve and knowing how to talk to a board. And I can tell you that the board tells me that they appreciate that I have an executive business mentality in talking to them. That is a huge asset that business schools bring to a presidency. So I know you asked me about execution, but I did come to talk about the board as part of that.

Dave 24:58

What was there or anything? I find it fascinating how you were so intentional and in gaining as much breadth as you could

Judy Olian 25:07

you say intentional. I'm not sure I was I was a bit like,

deliberate, deliberate, if not intentional. Well,

Dave 25:15

maybe it was fortunate. Yeah, maybe it was circuitous fortune? Well,

Judy Olian 25:18

I'll tell you, I was a bit like Mikey. And you know, Mikey and the serial thing that Michael tasted, I was a bit like that. And I always tell people, unless it's something totally aversive, and unless you absolutely have no time, say yes, when you can, because it will give you an opportunity to broaden your skills. But the other thing is that people outside of your network will get to know you and get to know who you are. And I wouldn't be at Quinnipiac, were it not for the fact that I had been a CSP as a volunteer and I had volunteered to do all kinds of things in accreditation, and I ended up at UCLA. And then UCLA, I had had somebody in the school who was the son of a major executive, that major executive was the j&j CEO, and Chairman Johnson and Johnson, CEO and chairman, who had come and done a commencement speech 10 years or so before or 11 years, he turned out to be the chair of the board of Quinnipiac, and the chair of the search committee, right, he came to me after 11 years, and said, you should consider this.

Dave 26:44

Well, where I was headed with my great points, that journey, but where I was headed was with the breadth that you did pick up where there. You know, when you think about the presidency, it's such a comprehensive role where there are gaps that you kind of wish you had. If you don't really know, then what you know, now kind of experiences for example, when I think about a presidency, with your experience at Maryland, Penn State and UCLA, shockingly rich experience on the academic side of the shop. But the President, as you alluded to a moment ago, eventually oversees parking and football and hockey and residential halls and the whole nine yards, you know, the construction? Yeah, yeah. Like, was that a? Was that a set of muscles that needed to be developed? Or did it just feel natural? Um,

Judy Olian 27:40

well, I and there was, there's some other things that I do now in particular, but I had started also while I was at UCLA, Anderson, and that was getting involved in corporate boards and some other nonprofits that acted like corporate boards. There are some muscles that are different at UCLA. And at Penn State, we had built buildings for the business school, that definitely gave me some prep for the capex projects that we're doing here. And they're bigger, but they're not dissimilar. The notion of how do you intersect with a board and what's noses in but fingers out? I have been helped by my outside board experience in understanding what the appropriate leverage of the board is, and how to really consult with the board without inviting them into inappropriately the management of the institution, or frankly, encouraging it. I'll tell you a couple of examples where I had to learn athletics and division one athletics, even if you're a diehard fan of sports, the machinations of what goes into overseeing and ultimately the President is responsible. It's not the athletic director, though you do hold the athletic director accountable or the coach. Ultimately, you're on the line for the for the machinations integrity and finances of athletics that didn't take up a chunk of your time. And I had, I had to learn that beyond just going and watching games. The other thing is some of the professional schools and their accreditation issues like medicine, like nursing, or like physician's assistants, Students are physical therapists are all of those. They are I'll tell you a medical school is unusual in the way it has to have all of these rotations, residency, strict oversight of accreditation, and so forth. But it was just about learning something intellectually, if you're a finance professor who becomes the dean, you don't know everything about business strategy or business marketing, and you have to learn that. And you have to learn that with regard to other disciplines, and other fields in the institution. And so I think the disciplinary aspects are a bit easier, because you also have a provost and strong Dean's the community, real estate, athletic pieces, might be a bit more outside the wheelhouse of what a dean does, and I encourage you to get involved. And again, by volunteering, for things that are outside your wheelhouse, even though it's a stretch, and it might be a bit of a pain to allocate that kind of time, it really gives you breadth. And when you're interviewing for a presidency, they don't want to hear about all that you know about the business school, they want to hear about all that you know about the rest of the university. And some

of that breadth help you with the development of a team, you touched on this briefly, but the team that you've put together is really rather extraordinary. And you've had a hand in in in the hiring of an outstanding Provost, but also sort of across both academic and administrative functions. What did you bring to that? And have you sort of had any sort of overarching sort of philosophy perspective or competency around hiring that's made that such a success?

Well, thank you for that. Well, you've helped Ken. And I think that you don't bet 1000 on hiring a mean. And part of it is whether you you succeed with the person and whether the person succeeds with you. I mean, I think that it's a mix of strategy and interpersonal disposition. And you want to see how the person fits with gestalt of your strategy. And our strategy is very nimble, very forward looking, very change oriented. And you want to see if somebody embraces that kind of change, that kind of nimbleness and openness to change. And the other thing is chemistry, that there's no question that you want to spend time with a person because you learn from them, that they will be somebody that you enjoy spending time with, because none of the jobs we hire for are insulated or isolated. And so to what extent, you know, table stakes are that they know their field, that's table stakes, that they've done a good job that you can see that they've done a good job that people verify that they've done a good job. But then the fit to you is about the strategic fit, and the chemistry fit. I said that about daughters to do they see that they identify with your strategy, and they feel empathy and trust for you.

Thank you, Judy, it's been great spending time with you. Here today. I think we're all a little wiser because of this conversation.

Well, and I want to volunteer myself to anybody that wants to have a conversation who who might be listening, other than, you know, my relatives who might have to this if they wanted to, to come in just mad around ideas on the pathway to the presidency. Obviously, mine was one. I will say one other thing. If you are interested in in the presidency, and a person who was in your business can once told me that it's also a law of numbers that, that nobody should be, should be expecting to have a probability of 100 in achieving success from every interview they they go on. And the more you interview, the better you'll get. And the greater the understanding is that you'll have of what people are looking for in the role of presidency. They're looking for breath. They're looking for strategic vision. They're looking for your understanding of the totality of the university. They're looking for the fact that you have gone into their culture into the guts of Who they are, and that you understand and respect that and can bring something to that while building on what they have, they're not going to want to hear from you that you really haven't spent time on that, and that you want to change everything. So, learn about the process, go on some interviews, don't be afraid of going and not getting the first or second or third opportunity that you wanted. And don't expect to be 100% prepared when you take a job because nobody is everything is new in some regards. So don't be afraid to take the leap. But, but really, the key is the breadth and the strategic vision that you bring alongside respect and attraction to where you'd be going.

Dave 35:50

God, thanks so much for the that advice and those insights, I know that our audience will surely reflect on your comments today. And thank you for the offer for them to reach out to you as needed.

Judy Olian 36:02

Well, thanks to all three of you. And it was great to reconnect and see everyone. And I hope our paths crossed in person. Absolutely. God,

I look forward to it. Thanks.

Well, Dave, what do you think about the master class and becoming a companion present?

Dave 36:29

Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. Where do you start? I so many great takeaways. I think it's really refreshing to know, we have to confess the Judy has had a remarkable series of dealerships that were remarkably productive. And, and so you know, her jumping point was pretty high up the ladder, or her presidency. Having said all that, great takeaways, a great pearls of wisdom, in terms of how she thinks about the job. And in the advice she provided us, for example, just to drill on an almost trivial thing, but it was quite clear how, from an early age, before she was even in administration, she was interested and she used this phrase boundaries, expanding experiences. Yeah. I find that so true. I, my hunch is that, you know, whether if we were to ask Jim, he would probably almost embody a lot of those same feelings. I know, I had those feelings when I was an assistant professor. And I, I hadn't vocalized that but I found it intriguing her for to voice that. But also just how her Dean chips really positioned her well for some of the bigger aspects, board management, philanthropy, building and grounds and capital projects, corporate relations, community relations, which many of us don't have that much experience in, but we're in the neighborhood of that space. So really, really sharing and I also find it we didn't touch on it too much. But I find it intriguing that what used to be kind of foreign turf, off limits turf for business school, Dean's is now becoming more widely accepted, where university boards and faculties are reaching out to be school deans for their strategic capabilities, as well as budgetary experiences. So your right to frame it as a masterclass experience. What about you can?

Judy Olian 38:44

Yeah, no, I thought it was really, really terrific. And she is. She's really, truly in this is a compliment. But in today's vernacular, a little dangerous. She's a real chief executive. She's a real she's a real executive leader, and, you know, willing to sort of do the hard things. But also, I mean, you could tell that part of her leadership style has been to find and appoint and get onto that bus. People who could actually make those make the decisions and do things so she's not swinging every bat lifting, you know, turn moving every lever herself. Right? She's very values oriented. Yep. And she's very inspiring. I am sure that her board finds her very inspiring, and that's not an easy thing to do on a University Board.

Dave 39:45

And you're absolutely right. What a great show. Thank you for listening to this episode of Dean's Council. This show is supported in part by Korn Ferry leaders in executive search. Dean's Council was produced in Boulder Colorado by A Joel Davis of analog digital arts. For a catalogue of previous shows, please visit our website at Dean's council.com. If you have any feedback for us, please let us know by sending an email to feedback at Dean's council.com. And finally, please hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you can automatically receive our latest show