A peer-to-peer discussion with Tim Westerbeck, president of strategic consulting and digital marketing agency Eduvantis.

🎙️ Tim Westerbeck provides a 30,000-foot view of the disorienting challenges higher education and university leaders face in light of the enrollment cliff, budget cuts, federal government constraints and a new era of technology and AI. Having served top academic institutions across the world as president of strategic consulting and digital marketing agency Eduvantis, Westerbeck brings a unique data-driven perspective from which all deans can draw insight. 

An important takeaway from this conversation is the need for business schools to identify opportunities to redefine their business models in ways that better leverage their partnerships, non-degree offerings, and micro and stackable types of credentials to attract and serve students. By adapting to changes apparent in our marketplace reality and taking calculated risks, institutions can expand their offerings with more opportunities to develop the specified skills today’s employers are seeking.

“I think the degree programs are going to become increasingly difficult to sell in [the] environment we're in now, and credentialing is a way to bring people into the institution, to experience the quality of teaching and learning, to associate with the brand and to be seen as part of a learning community that's in demand by employers in a whole new way.”

From leaning into the potential of technology to facilitate new ways of delivering education to building alternative pathways to traditional majors, there’s something for everyone to gain in Episode 60 of Deans Counsel.  #highereducation #leadership #podcast #DeansCounsel

Photos courtesy of Eduvatnis

Read more about Tim Westerbeck here

Transcript:

Welcome to Deans Counsel, a podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists, Ken Kring, Jim Ellis and Dave Ikenberry, engage in conversation with highly accomplished deans and other academic leaders regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Deans face in one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy.

Unknown Speaker 0:00

Music.

Dave Ikenberry 0:13

Welcome to Dean's Counsel, a podcast aimed at supporting university leaders holding one of the more critical jobs on a university campus. Your panelists, Ken Kring, Jim Ellis and Dave Ikenberry, engage in conversation with highly accomplished deans and other academic leaders regarding the ever complex array of challenges that Deans face in one of the loneliest and most unique jobs in the academy. As one takes a broad view of higher education today, the picture is dim, if not discouraging, while stressors of all sorts have seemingly always been present. The new political dynamic we see in 2025 is even more concerning than just a few months ago. Our guest today, though, Tim Westerbeck, perhaps best position to provide perspective on the strategic challenges that business schools face today. Tim and his firm edu Vanitas, based in Chicago, have been providing data driven strategic advice to colleges and universities for many years as a student of the business of business education Tim's advice and perspective is both insightful and welcome in what is otherwise an unsettling time. We hope you grow and benefit from this episode. Our guest today is Tim Westerbeck, Tim, welcome to Dean's Counsel.

Tim Westerbeck 1:36

My pleasure. Glad to be here.

Dave Ikenberry 1:38

Tim is CEO of the advisory firm called edu Vantage Tim and I got acquainted years ago, and I'm sure several of several of the listeners on our podcast have have worked with you as well. You're an incredible fountain of knowledge, while you haven't necessarily walked the walk of a team, you work with teens, day in and day out, and I think you have a vision view of the profession that few of us have. And so we're looking forward to today, to hearing your thoughts about some of the challenges that we face today, and just as importantly, what are some of the solutions that you see to those challenges. Before we got on our call here, we were talking briefly about your visit to AACSB and a few weeks ago, and you were remarking that you heard a little bit of gloom and doom in the air. Share a little bit about that observation. I don't want to over. I don't want to embellish that observation, by the way, but what, what are some of the things you're concerned about or you're hearing and where can we go from here?

Tim Westerbeck 2:51

Well, yeah, you know it is. I found it noteworthy as somebody who I'm almost embarrassed to admit, but I think I've probably been to 30 or more ACSB. I deans, conferences, starting back when I was nine. You know, seriously, I mean, I've been to a lot of them, and I've seen them over time, and seen the moods, seen the issues come and go, seeing the challenges as they emerge, and how the industry deals with them. And I have to say, I walked away from this one thinking, Gosh, I'm not sure I've ever seen so much sort of angst, so much just sort of questioning and concern about what we're going to be able to do next as institutions. Because you turn here and you see an enrollment cliff. You turn there you see budget cuts. You turn there you hear the federal government's putting new kind of constraints on us. We there's a general sense in society that higher education is losing some of its value. We're finding more competitors outside of the traditional Academy. Or hearing employers saying, you know, that they don't necessarily need the same kind of skill development and such that have traditionally been, you know, put forth in business schools. And I just thought, wow, this is a this is a level I don't know that I have ever seen before, and I find it very concerning, because I think, as we all know, you can, you can kind of be crushed by problems, or get paralyzed by them, or you can, you know, really kind of do something about them. And I mean, no, you know, critique of any Dean or or Deans as a whole. But right now, it seems to me like we might be kind of stuck in the what do we do next kind of mode? And I think it's ironic given that we're talking a lot about innovation, right, and we're talking a lot about some very big opportunities for change that are coming up around AI and other things. So I just hope we can get that mood up a bit.

Dave Ikenberry 4:58

Is this in the context of. A change in the presidential you know, presidential leadership. I mean, you know, we're, we're taping this today on on February 24 and I think we've experienced one year's worth of announcements in the last three weeks. Is that all it is, or is there more to it than that? Tim,

Tim Westerbeck 5:20

well, that's a good, good question. Davis, it's a, there is an important nuance there. I think let's take this sort of one at a time. There's, there's no question for me. And I mean this based on a fair number of conversations both at this conference and elsewhere, that you know, higher education as a whole is been under attack, and a lot of the sort of fundamental things that the government has done to support higher education, education as a whole, look as though they may be changing significantly or going away around funding for research and all kind of things. And I think that most business school deans that I spoke with are certainly feeling pressure from their presidents and their institutions around, you know, making sure we're thinking through what's going to happen here if we lose a significant amount of federal funding or other such things. And that's that's some new kind of pressure that around a problem that, you know, people have never really dealt with quite this way. So I think that has a bit of a disorienting effect. It has a way of having some weight and people because it's something new that they've never really dealt with, and they're really not sure what they're going to do and how they're going to deal with it. And some of it's out of their control, right? They don't know what's going on at the university level, what the president's doing, they're being asked to do things like, you know, change their websites and and get rid of words and terms in in documents and programs. And it's kind of new territory, and I think that's been very disconcerting. However, I would say that what preceded, what's been going on in the, like you said, the years worth of politics in very short period of time. It feels like it is this idea of, you know, an enrollment cliff. It's been a while that I think graduate programs as the route to growth have been under pressure that people had not seen before. And you know, when the full time MBA first started coming under a lot of pressure, people moved right naturally in the market. Other kinds of programs, specialized master's degrees focused on whether it's analytics or whatever it might be in found market share. You know, found growth. But you know, in our data as a firm, and I think what we find out there is the the market just isn't, isn't growing, and isn't going to grow necessarily, like it has in the past, in the graduate space in particular. And now we see the undergraduate with the sort of enrollment Cliff upon us. You know, I think people have gotten concerned about what's their next act. And, you know, I think that's something that preceded, you know, what might be going on, and sort of the political arena, it was there before that. Frankly, I guess, I think I've seen it coming for a while, but it just seems like it's become more acute

Jim Ellis 8:17

recently. Don't you think that that one of the ways to get through this. I mean, there's, there's a couple things you can do. You can go bury your head in the sand and just say, I'm screwed. Or you can creatively look at niches where you can differentiate your own program, whether it's from the standpoint of your geographic location, whether it's the standpoint of your the perception in the market of who your school is and what your school is, you know, looking, for example, at maybe more online stuff. So you're you're picking up more of the lifelong learners that may want to come back the specialized masters I know in my school, we put 10 of them in, and we said that if any, any of them aren't successful, we'll blow them up and get rid of them, and all 10 of them are still successful. So there's there. There are opportunities out there. You just have to be a little more creative. And you got, I think you have to take more of a risk than maybe some people want to take what, relative to your portfolio, and that's hard to do, but you you have, I'm an old department store buyer, so I look at things as they either sell you mark them down. Well, you know, if it's not working, market down and get rid of it. That's a problem that we always have in academia. We don't take markdowns and that we just sit with dead wood. And that's just, it's it's a hard thing to do. So I My thought is to be a little more creative and ask you, how do you, how do you work that into your thought process? Well,

Tim Westerbeck 9:50

I think you're spot on, Joe, I mean, and I think that's the, you know, that's, of course, what business strategy is. It's, you know, this figuring out how you can differentiate what you've got. It. A even in a very crowded market, to gain market share and leverage the distinctive advantages that you have for your, you know, your products and programs. And you hit something right off the bat there, which is, you know, schools exist in very, very different environments. They're very different, very different markets. In many cases, it's not just there's a hierarchy of schools according to the rankings, and that's it. You know, schools vary hugely by the kind of industries that are clustered around them, by their geography, by their demographics, by a lot of factors. And I think it's been too long since schools started becoming, you know, sort of proud of the fact that they live and exist and serve in a different environment than they may have thought about in the past, because they're busy trying to compete with this school or that school, or this school or that school, it's in their same rankings tier or things like that. They don't think about their individuality and how they can really gain by moving away from those sort of buckets and actually building a program offering from head to toe again. Like you said, it's not just, it's about blowing up a bit. It's about really trying to do the whole thing differently, not just adding some classes here or there, or doing things like that, but saying, you know, we're gonna, we're going to our service and business model and delivery model and value we create for our stakeholders is going to be different than what someone else might be able to offer otherwise. And I think there's It has been too long, what I would call strong word conformity, around wanting to sort of look a certain way and be a certain way, and have certain programs and products and and have the right, you know, numbers to go with it, and the rankings. And as opposed to saying, you know, what, if I were a free agent and I could take the resources I have here, the faculty, geography, the all the things that make up my market, and say, How am I going to turn this into a easily protected area, you know, with a moat around it, like you'd want, and other kind of investments? But so I think you're right, Jim. I mean, you're spot on. I think it's, it's the age of real innovation and change. Think is upon us that is for real. And again, I'm not saying it's been falsely stated before, but I do think we've like to use words like that in the industry, necessarily doing things that are a little more radical, a little more risky. And I think that, I think we're on onto that Now Jim,

Dave Ikenberry 12:37

Jim and I can pontificate this from 20 years ago, but 20 years ago, international education was just it was almost table stakes. You know, we we were expected as a as an educational community, to get people ready to join a global work environment. And the ground is shifting on that view, I think about my own school, we've pulled back in the last, you know, eight years or so, 10 years. What? What are you what are you seeing, feeling, and, more importantly, what are you advising schools that partner up with you on this dimension?

Tim Westerbeck 13:16

Well, I think the number one point is that all schools are not built the same. Some schools are very well built to participate in global markets, right? They have the resources, the contacts, their reputation, they have a way of doing that, and they make investments around that and such. They're still they're going to continue doing there's other schools that their version International was, they just took in a flood of international students, and those markets changed. They've changed, we all know, very fundamentally, right? And I certainly, from my perspective as a, as a, you know, a management consultant, essentially, having seen a lot of schools that got got caught pretty heavily off guard, because they'd spent a long time seeking a major revenue stream. As these international students, full payer students, India, China in particular, I think, and they were filling up their classes, and it was happy days. And I think you saw a pretty fundamental shift during the first Trump administration that really caught a lot of people off guard. And then I think you've seen a lot of schools globally get better and better and provide more options, you know, to international students for very high quality education. It's very closely linked to latest technology and markets and learning environments. And I just think that to try to build the undergrad or graduate level an international population that's going to sustain a domestic US school at the level that it did in the past is going to become very, very challenging and problematic. Yeah, and I don't think that's a new experience, but what I will say is I still see a lot of people really holding on to that, you know, believing that they can sort of turn that around, because for one reason or another, and I haven't really heard that many good reasons. And so my our advice is, you know, you're, you are a domestic institution, you need to first make sure that you have a domestic market and that you're serving that and serving it well and competitively, and if you can find ways to internationalize the learning experience through both the learning model, the curriculum and from experiences like, you know, going abroad and other programs like that, and you can still bring in a decent number of international students to represent the international population, and the international experience build in international cases, do all kinds of things to make it sort of an international focused learning experience and learning environment. I think that's almost a given these days. I think that you can, you can find the right balance for your institution, but the idea that it's just going to be a flood of international students are going to come back in the door and pay full freight and fill up your classes is I think that's an idea that's got to be let go. And I'd love to hear your, your views on this. I mean, you have a lot of experience in these areas as well, but that's certainly what I see.

Jim Ellis 16:28

Well, it's interesting. I think you're, you're right. There's two things going on here, one of which is, it's a revenue grab for a lot of a lot of institutions, because they were full paying students, and they came in and then there, that's an important thing, and that's going to be gone. I totally agree with you on that. I mean, especially the big the big countries, yeah, and most particularly China. But then the other thing is, relative to curriculum, we put together a three university program where you did your freshman year at USC, your sophomore year at Hong Kong University, and your junior year at Bocconi and Milan your senior year at any one of those three. And you literally could get three universe three degrees from three universities on three continents. Now that still is something that a lot of students are applying to. So it's been pretty successful. And you could change that. And you could do, you know, something with, you know, a California University, a Southern University and a Midwestern University, and you could do a similar kind of thing like that, even within so there's a lot of way, I think it's back to this creativity thing. You've just got to think more creatively, how you differentiate? Because I think the benefit of International Studies was the fact that you were looking at different cultures. Well, there's different cultures in the United States. You can look at it the same way. I think so. That's just you asked me my opinion. That's kind of what I'm thinking. But you know, there's, there's so many different things you can do. And I, I just hope that Deans can be creative in their thought process, in their their portfolios.

Tim Westerbeck 17:59

No, I think you're right. I mean, I mean, I what I understood you to say, really, that it really resonates with me is it's one thing to say, you know, we're going to fill our classrooms and create this revenue stream, you know, a high markup revenue stream by people flood from, you know, wherever they come from, whatever country the time, you know, makes us the most attraction to but that doesn't mean, if you can't do that, that doesn't mean you can't construct very interesting and value added programs that give people all kinds of experiences that are hugely valuable in international context, and they can self select into those, and you can resource them properly and make them really high quality learning experiences and really add a lot of value. I think that's makes the, you know, a great deal of sense, but the school has to it has to fit them. It has to make sense for them.

Jim Ellis 18:51

One of the thoughts you had is entrepreneurship. I mean, you could pick three universities if you're good at entrepreneurship, pick two others that are good at entrepreneurship, and send your students to those three, if you're absolutely, if you're good at a particular industry, let's take entertainment industry. Let there's all kinds you can move within universities and within programs there. So there's a lot of different ways you can go

Tim Westerbeck 19:11

that way. That's exactly right. That's That's great. Let's hope we see, let's hope we see that really coming on. Because I think that's just, it's so intuitively, a good idea. Yeah, right. You can just see how it could work and feel it. And I think that's a that's an opportunity to really, you know, there you've mixed in there the idea of partnerships as well. I mean, I think that's one of the questions is, you know, are all the universities that are out there going to be able to survive without having some good partnerships, and, you know, finding ways to leverage their resources. And that's, that's just one simple example of that, but it made me think of that. I do think that's another route that we haven't seen enough of. We've talked about partnerships collaboration forever in higher ed. In business schools. And, you know, I've looked closely at a lot of those partnerships and such. And, you know, a lot of times they, frankly, they don't have, there's not as much there, there as you might think, in terms of really being part of a business model and sustainable and such. And I think it's time for more of that. I think that there's that's definitely a strategy that can work.

Dave Ikenberry 20:21

Tim, I can't remember the first time I heard the phrase micro credentials, but that phrase has been percolating for several years now, and I'd be curious to hear, you know, we've talked about it a lot. A lot of schools, though, aren't really immersed in it, but, but what are you seeing? How do we really, how do we leverage these things? How can, how can we drive success out of it? What? What models work, which, which don't work?

Tim Westerbeck 20:51

Yeah, well, I it's another good question. It's certainly part of the landscape today, right? And there's been a lot of motivations, I mean, on degree programming has been around for a very long time, obviously, and turning them into a credential isn't a very big leap. And I think that was very easy early on for the executive education business to sort of move into sort of the credentialing business, because people wanted, they wanted something more to show for their investment of time and money and to build their credential on LinkedIn or wherever they need to build it and and something that's denoted as a credential from an institution, you get the brand, it's a more powerful addition, you know, to your portfolio. And so I think it kind of started very naturally. There are people who are not interested necessarily in degree learning, but they wanted to have some access to something like that. And then, of course, came this whole idea of stackable credentials, which essentially became an idea that was used to say, well, you know, we still want these people to buy our degree programs. You know, if somebody's getting a credential from us, we we'd like them to hit two or three of them, and we'd like them to know, if they get three or four of them, they can start stacking them into, you know, foundation of completing requirements for degrees. So it becomes a marketing among other things. And I think that has, that's been around a while, and that's worked pretty well. What I think is happening now is that's that's continuing, but credentials have taken on a different kind of life of their own, because the the market makers, the buyers of skills and skill sets and of individuals, credentials are much more in some cases, interested in in skill development, skill building that's linked to the specific needs of their company or their business. And they don't feel as pressed to bring people in who have more substantial degrees. They're just as interested, in many cases, if somebody has a good portfolio of experience that they have some very specific and kind of almost cherry picked kind of skills and credentials to do their jobs. And you know, we're seeing that at every level and every kind of employer. And I think one of the biggest potential missed opportunities I see at some institutions is to not really understand their non degree business, sort of writ large, which would include the credentialing business could and should be darn close in terms of its growth and contributions to revenue degree programs, because I think the degree programs are going to become increasingly difficult to sell in an environment we're in now, and credentialing is a way to bring people into the institution, to experience the quality of teaching and learning, to associate with the brand and to be seen as part of a learning community that's in demand by employers in a whole new way. And but it doesn't happen from my experience, our experience, it doesn't happen just by accident, right? You have to really set out to say this is going to be part of my business model. I'm going to invest it. I'm going to make it something that's something I'm known for as as an institution, and I'm going to bring in a whole community of people around us who may never become degree learners, but they might, we hope they will. We'll do things to sort of bring them up the ladder. But it's a business that stands on its own in many ways.

Dave Ikenberry 24:36

Is this just? Is this just a variation of exec ed that I'm hearing or like, how, how are, what are some of the I know we can't we could spend a whole hour on this, but what are some of the techniques that deans are using to get their faculty to bring these things to life?

Tim Westerbeck 24:58

Well, I honestly, I think you. Hit. One of the hardest parts here is, here's what I hear. Okay, we do, you know, we do a lot of interviewing with corporate people, right? That understand the market makers for the people who are coming out of traditional business schools and elsewhere. And a lot of the concern, well, a lot of the concern I have is the concern I hear on the part of employers that they don't feel that some of the traditional, you know, historically, place and space based business schools move as quickly as they need them to to develop new courses around things that are germane to their business today and tomorrow, and some of the shortcomings that they find, that they identify is that, well, you know, faculty don't necessarily move that quickly, or don't necessarily have the experience to do some of the teaching that we need around certain subject areas. And AI is a perfect example. You know, I think it that's the challenge here, is whether the traditional business school can really adapt to the needs of the marketplace around skill developed, skill based learning that needs to change very, very rapidly, and tends to be technology based, and a lot of the other kinds of traditional, like you mentioned, Dave, executive education, kind of learning around leadership and things like that. I think is a kind of a different, different business. And it's a business that's that's struggled at a lot of institutions over the last, you know, decade or so, right? And so I think this is a different kind of learning, different kind of skill development, a different kind of credentialing that's in demand by some of today's companies, more of today's companies than what would have traditionally been seen as executive education past.

Jim Ellis 26:55

So if you, if this is really great, great discussion. So if you, if you look at first of all, let's talk undergrad. The sacrosanct piece of undergraduate is, what's your major? Are we really saying? Let's blow up the major minor concept and throw in the credential where you take four classes and be credentialed. Screw being a major. Nobody cares about that anyway. You know your finance major. Whoop dee, do. Okay, great. Now all of a sudden, you've got an AI credential, and you've got to So, so one thing at the undergraduate level to do it that way, and because you don't have a major minor, when you get to the MBA level, the MBA level is a pretty easy one, where you can be credentialed. And the other piece of this, as you're as you're really saying it is because of the strength of online learning and online education, you're going to pick up a an audience that you may not otherwise get. I mean, I I look back at we had an online MBA student who was a Air Force colonel in Fargo, North Dakota, guarding our missiles. He couldn't leave Fargo to go get his MBA, but he got his MBA online. Well, you could get a credential online in very much the same way, and you pick up a completely different market. So it's kind of interesting. I Is that sort of the way you envision this thing?

Tim Westerbeck 28:14

Yeah, you, you're you're putting your you're describing the breadth of this that you know this works for that individual you're talking about, and then you reference something at the beginning of your comments about sort of, it actually really changing the way an undergraduate education might look. And that's another example where I'm starting to see more schools starting to say, Yeah, minors are, you know, they're kind of artifacts of the way we used to have people go sit in classes and now and that minor was sort of collected on the resume. Now we can, we can move upstream here in terms of making the knowledge and information skill more way more directly relevant to what employers want. We can assemble through the use of technology. You know, portfolios for people around, you know, this kind of skill development and credentialing and the heck with them a major. You know, there's, I've heard people, you know, in their, in their, I guess, radical moments, talk about not even needing majors. In many cases, you know, there's, there are sort of learning portfolios and skill portfolios that people are interested in more from the employer side and elsewhere, could maybe look like that going forward. And so you know your point all along here. The theme of this is there's a need for innovation. That's true. Innovation really thinking of some new ways of doing things and letting go of some things, and even though it's scary, it's a lot better than being scared to the point that you're frozen or you feel like you're having trouble with taking action. That's going to build some real change. So I'm hoping that we can go from where we are now, which I think is a little bit down. I. Uh, on some level and and really perk up and decide that we're going to really make a commitment as an industry to to start really making some changes that are going to adapt what we're doing into an era, despite the challenges that are here, because we can face those and, and I'm confident they will. It's just such a great industry. It's such a great group of people who are in Dean's roles. I just think it's time to kind of stir it up a bit and maybe, maybe make some moves.

Dave Ikenberry 30:28

Our time has just flown by. This morning, I thank you for carving out time to be with us and lending your insights on some of the big issues driving us today.

Tim Westerbeck 30:38

Well, my pleasure. This is fun, and it's great that you have a forum like this. Is, this is, I think, really helpful for deans to kind of listen to each other and talk through what's going on. So thank you for the opportunity,

Dave Ikenberry 30:52

but we appreciate what you and your firm have been doing for a few decades now. So that's, that's key.

Jim Ellis 30:59

Yeah, keep, keep it up. We really appreciate this is great. Really good, good discussion. Thank you. Thank you.

Tim Westerbeck 31:05

Have a good rest of your day.

Dave Ikenberry 31:14

Jim, what was your takeaway with our conversation with Tim? Well,

Jim Ellis 31:19

Tim's perspective on business school education really is at a very high level, because he sees so many different curricula and some creative things. And I'm just, I'm sorry to hear him say that he's feeling some doom and gloom and some angst. I understand it totally, but Right? I'm glad he's, you know, he's got a very creative mentality, and I think that innovation is the way that we're we as business schools are going to get out of this angst. And I just like his approach and the way he comes up with positive thoughts. And hopefully that's what our listeners will be able to do, is take away from this some positive thinking that to change the concern about the the enrollment cliff, etc, etc, the international students, the enrollment of international so I thought it was a very, very enlightening session.

Dave Ikenberry 32:12

I did too. I We didn't. We didn't dwell on the topic. But by implication, we kind of did that the topic, the issue here is it just reminds us. It reminds me about how we really need to listen to our employers, really intentionally on both making sure that our degree programs are doing what they need to do, but to the extent we're interested, or one wants to pursue micro credentials that's at the you know, making sure we really address what those needs are is going to tell us whether we have effective, you know, whether we're putting a product that the market will will want and demand. And we just need to have these relationships some of us, some of us, deans, are really good at meeting with employers on a recurring basis and others, though less so. And I'm just wondering if we need to pull on, pull on those relationships and and and push a little harder to get that information. Well,

Jim Ellis 33:14

I think the companies in our geographic area are looking to us for that. Yeah. So you're right, the more that we reach out to them and bring them into our loop, the better off we're going to be, because each of us has a differentiating reason for being within our marketplace, and we all have a big company, 2345, depending on where we are, that can really help us raise our level of education and help our students be prepared for their careers. Yeah, it was really good. Very good. Yeah, it

Dave Ikenberry 33:49

was a good it was a good episode.

Jim Ellis 33:51

Excellent. Yep.

Dave Ikenberry 33:52

Thank you for listening to this episode of Deans Counsel. This show is supported in part by Korn Ferry leaders in executive search. Dean's Counsel was produced in Boulder, Colorado by Joel Davis of analog digital arts for a catalog of previous shows, please visit our website at deanscounsel.com if you have any feedback for us, please let us know by sending an email to feedback@deanscounsel.com and finally, please hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you can automatically receive our latest show you.